.233 lead & freebore for 80 grainers
- Thread starter Dubya
- Start date
Last summer, ThunderDownUnder gave a reference to the reamer types and dimensions for the .223 and heavy bullets. Hey, Aussie, if you are reading this, refresh our memories.
Gary: I sent Dave Kiff/Pacific a dummy round with the 80 gr. Sierra #1480 seated to touch with the bottom of the full .224" bullet dia. at the bottom of the case neck, and he cut my reamer with .072" freebore. Have cut 3 chamberings with this reamer now and all turned out well. The 77 gr. Sierra #1477 is so close to the same dimension it's not even a concern when switching. And icing on the cake is when I want to use the "little" 55 gr. Hornady V-Max, they will touch with their bullet base also at the bottom of the case neck. 
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
Gary:
Either I am missing something here, or someone else is. The length of the freebore needed to have a bullet arrive at a certain desired OAL is also dependent on what throat angle is selected. I never understand postings where people say "a freebore of so and so works well with this bullet" as it leaves out the other half of the equation. With .223 reamers there are a number of different common throat angles used including 3 degrees, one and a half degrees, one and a quarter degrees, and one degree, thirteen minutes, twenty three seconds.
All I can say is be careful of the advise you take on this issue without getting the whole story.
Robert Whitley
Either I am missing something here, or someone else is. The length of the freebore needed to have a bullet arrive at a certain desired OAL is also dependent on what throat angle is selected. I never understand postings where people say "a freebore of so and so works well with this bullet" as it leaves out the other half of the equation. With .223 reamers there are a number of different common throat angles used including 3 degrees, one and a half degrees, one and a quarter degrees, and one degree, thirteen minutes, twenty three seconds.
All I can say is be careful of the advise you take on this issue without getting the whole story.
Robert Whitley
Found the .223 chamber reamer chart posted by Thunder last summer. As RCW3 points out, note the different throat angles at the bottom of the chart. So I guess Dubya`s question is "Which freebore length and throat angle works best with 80 gr Bergers and Sierras?". Would one chamber satisfy both? Don`t know myself. Will bow to those with greater knowledge.
Check it out at http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
Check it out at http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
Gary: Excellent advice from Robert and Cole: they filled-in what I left out. Suggest you contact Dave Kiff/Pacific Tool & Gauge, or any other quality reamer maker and get the straight dope directly from them. My leade angles are all the "standard" 1 min. 30 degree, so it was not an issue with me.
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
Gary
There's also a bit of a dilemma with those two bullets as the Berger 80 has a good bit longer bearing surface than the Sierra bullet. If the throat is set up for the Berger 80 gr VLD's, then a Sierra 80 gr bullet will be about .050" up in the neck (not necessarily ideal because the .223 Rem has a short neck and there won't be much hanging onto the bullet and that set up won't permit much throat wear for you with the Sierras). If you throat it for the Sierra 80's, the Bergers will be back in the case a good bit. I think you need to go with the throating for the 80 Sierras and just use it for the 80 Bergers (that would be my choice - you can always throat things out further, but setting back a barrel is a chore).
The throating on the Wylde Reamer works well there (in my view), a one and a quarter degree throat angle and an .062" free bore. With bullets I have, and a newly chambered Krieger barrel with a .223 Wylde reamer, a Sierra 80 gr bullet hits around 2.500" OAL and a Berger 80 gr VLD hits around 2.450" OAL. If you want to split the difference between the Berger and the Sierra on throating, then go about .025" more on the freebore (i.e. to .087") but that would not be my personal choice.
Robert Whitley
www.6mmAR.com
There's also a bit of a dilemma with those two bullets as the Berger 80 has a good bit longer bearing surface than the Sierra bullet. If the throat is set up for the Berger 80 gr VLD's, then a Sierra 80 gr bullet will be about .050" up in the neck (not necessarily ideal because the .223 Rem has a short neck and there won't be much hanging onto the bullet and that set up won't permit much throat wear for you with the Sierras). If you throat it for the Sierra 80's, the Bergers will be back in the case a good bit. I think you need to go with the throating for the 80 Sierras and just use it for the 80 Bergers (that would be my choice - you can always throat things out further, but setting back a barrel is a chore).
The throating on the Wylde Reamer works well there (in my view), a one and a quarter degree throat angle and an .062" free bore. With bullets I have, and a newly chambered Krieger barrel with a .223 Wylde reamer, a Sierra 80 gr bullet hits around 2.500" OAL and a Berger 80 gr VLD hits around 2.450" OAL. If you want to split the difference between the Berger and the Sierra on throating, then go about .025" more on the freebore (i.e. to .087") but that would not be my personal choice.
Robert Whitley
www.6mmAR.com
Robert, thanks for your input. RE: bearing surface, my readings show that the Sierra has .016
longer bearing surface than the Berger VLD As your seating depth indicates, the Sierra 80 has a longer COAL (or base to ogive).And you are probably jumping the Sierra and going into the lans on the Bergers. As for degree of throat angle, have you found any reamer, other than the Wylde that seems to work well and what degree would you specify if ordering a new reamer
Thanks,
Gary.
longer bearing surface than the Berger VLD As your seating depth indicates, the Sierra 80 has a longer COAL (or base to ogive).And you are probably jumping the Sierra and going into the lans on the Bergers. As for degree of throat angle, have you found any reamer, other than the Wylde that seems to work well and what degree would you specify if ordering a new reamer
Thanks,
Gary.
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
Gary
I am not jumping any of those bullets, Sierra or Berger.
You also cannot just go by readings measuring just bullets because those two bullets (Berger 80 VLD and Sierra 80) have different ogives, making it so the Sierra sits a good bit further forward in most throatings than does the Berger. With those numbers, I am also working off real physical data (i.e. measurements where bullets actually hit the lands), and not just paper data.
The one and a half degree throat angle is o.k., but you will get more pressure with it with the 80's than you will with the one and a quarter throat angle (i.e. that's why Wylde used the milder throat angle).
The Wylde reamer body is on the sloppy side so a compromise might be a minimum SAAMI .223 Rem body with the Wylde throating (i.e. one and a quarter degrees and an .062" freebore).
You really have not specified exactly what you are looking to accomplish with this reamer so it's kind of hard to be specific on reamer design issues. Every design and dimensional change on a reamer has tradeoffs and if you are not clear on the priorities, the design then becomes more like a "one size fits all" design.
One thing I know is that a lot of the reamer makers (including Kiff) don't necessarily know key aspects of how changes in reamer design play out in the field with actual testing and chambers, so I would not count on what reamer makers say as "the word of God". They make reamers, they don't necessarily, make them, chamber up rifles with them and test out those chamberings (been there - done that - and also received some bad advice on reamer design from reamer makers too).
Robert Whitley
I am not jumping any of those bullets, Sierra or Berger.
You also cannot just go by readings measuring just bullets because those two bullets (Berger 80 VLD and Sierra 80) have different ogives, making it so the Sierra sits a good bit further forward in most throatings than does the Berger. With those numbers, I am also working off real physical data (i.e. measurements where bullets actually hit the lands), and not just paper data.
The one and a half degree throat angle is o.k., but you will get more pressure with it with the 80's than you will with the one and a quarter throat angle (i.e. that's why Wylde used the milder throat angle).
The Wylde reamer body is on the sloppy side so a compromise might be a minimum SAAMI .223 Rem body with the Wylde throating (i.e. one and a quarter degrees and an .062" freebore).
You really have not specified exactly what you are looking to accomplish with this reamer so it's kind of hard to be specific on reamer design issues. Every design and dimensional change on a reamer has tradeoffs and if you are not clear on the priorities, the design then becomes more like a "one size fits all" design.
One thing I know is that a lot of the reamer makers (including Kiff) don't necessarily know key aspects of how changes in reamer design play out in the field with actual testing and chambers, so I would not count on what reamer makers say as "the word of God". They make reamers, they don't necessarily, make them, chamber up rifles with them and test out those chamberings (been there - done that - and also received some bad advice on reamer design from reamer makers too).
Robert Whitley
I sent Dave Kiff a email requesting his suggestions for reamer to shoot 80gr & 90gr Bergers in a 1/7 31" barrel for 1000yard shooting in Canda F/tr class here was is reply
Dave suggest you get a 223 Remington Match with .252 neck, .078 freebore and 1°-30.
This should work great. The cost is $138.00, please allow 2 to 3 weeks for production time
Regards
but as duckhunter mentioned the throat reamer would good to get as well just incase throat is a little short for the 90gr and bullets are to far down in case. need all case capacity to get those 90gr to 2850fps
Dave suggest you get a 223 Remington Match with .252 neck, .078 freebore and 1°-30.
This should work great. The cost is $138.00, please allow 2 to 3 weeks for production time
Regards
but as duckhunter mentioned the throat reamer would good to get as well just incase throat is a little short for the 90gr and bullets are to far down in case. need all case capacity to get those 90gr to 2850fps
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.