22PPC in an AR15

[Matt Pitchon]

I have watched with great interest the proliferation of 224 cartridges for the AR platform. A short list would include the 22 Nosler, the 224 Valkrie, the 224AR, the 220 Thunderbolt, and others.

Since the 224AR is based on the Grendel case, which is based on the 7.62x39 case. It would seem that the 22 PPC which is based on the 220 Russian, also based on the 7.62x39 case would work well.

Has anyone tried this? Might be nice to have an accurate well established cartridge with available brass in an AR platform.

 

[maxscm]

Don't forget the SPEED DEMON 22x6.8 !!

 

[retired]

ii have a 6 beggs in an ar 15 platform with a 7.62x39 bolt.
a project still in work...been on the back shelf for a long time
next up is a 6br or a 30br based on a newer larger bolt/bbl extension
that still fits in an ar15 platform.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

My recollection is someone a few years ago developed a .473 bolt and barrel extension for the ar15. It seemed to work, but don't know what happened. I remember the walls on the extension got somewhat thin.

Still interested in the 22 PPC as it's somewhat standard. The 22PPC has factory brass and dies are available.

 

[simplerider]

Glen Zediker references in a few of his books about his building and experience using the 22ppc AR15 he used for XTC years ago. you may be able to find more info on his website.

 

[ebb]

With the walls of the PPC being so straight maybe use the parent brass as is, 220 Russian.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

Thanks for the tip on Zedikers work. It seems that considerable work was done on the 22PPC, and then largely forgotten. From what I can tell, Scott Medesha made some excellent xtc match rifles which worked very well. There is only so much room in an AR, and all newer generation of cartridges have case capacity similar to the 22PPC.
Near as I can tell, the lack of case taper in the 22PPC didn't seem to be a problem, at least from what I read. Redding even makes a small base version of the 22PPC sizing die.

Would love to hear from someone who has acually used the 22PPC

 

[averh2o]

Thanks for the tip on Zedikers work. It seems that considerable work was done on the 22PPC, and then largely forgotten. From what I can tell, Scott Medesha made some excellent xtc match rifles which worked very well. There is only so much room in an AR, and all newer generation of cartridges have case capacity similar to the 22PPC.
Near as I can tell, the lack of case taper in the 22PPC didn't seem to be a problem, at least from what I read. Redding even makes a small base version of the 22PPC sizing die.

Would love to hear from someone who has acually used the 22PPC

Some years ago i had an upper in 6 ppc which i used for xtc matches. It shot very well and there was a wind advantage at 600 with 107 gr bullets over the .223. I used a 7.62x39 bolt and 223 mags which needed to be tweaked to feed . Highpower shooters need a lot off brass and it hurt everytime i lost a couple of ppc cases in the grass since they cost so much. I went back to the 223 and never looked back.I dont see much advantage to the 22ppc other than a little speed.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

You made a good point about the cost of brass for xtc. All these cartridges have brass costs which are well above that of 223.

I'm shooting a 223 with 90s at 2770fps at 600. There is some gain with each of these cartridges, but not a huge difference.

I find that most of my gains come with lots more practice. Practice costs. 223 practice brass is cheap, and most of my shooting is practice. Probably 4-1 practice to match.

 

[yotehater]

And don't forget how much time is invested in that brass. On my wildcat brass I'll spend more time looking for brass than shooting. duh huh

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Bad idea for not any gain for all the reasons listed above. I can see you shooting one shot then stopping to find that brass as much time as youll have invested in it

 

[MislMan]

Why don’t you shooters use the clip-on brass catchers? Seems that once you get used to shooting with the catcher installed any weight factor would have been accounted for. I use a Caldwell clip-on brass catcher on my AR15 when shooting from the bench or for FTR.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Another problem with the AR platform is that it chews the base of the brass up pretty quickly which diminishes the life of the brass.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have watched with great interest the proliferation of 224 cartridges for the AR platform. A short list would include the 22 Nosler, the 224 Valkrie, the 224AR, the 220 Thunderbolt, and others.

Since the 224AR is based on the Grendel case, which is based on the 7.62x39 case. It would seem that the 22 PPC which is based on the 220 Russian, also based on the 7.62x39 case would work well.

Has anyone tried this? Might be nice to have an accurate well established cartridge with available brass in an AR platform.

Just going to say what is my opinion on this and leave it at that...There will likely be others.

Bolt thrust is a function of pressure and area. The BR requires not only a yet thinner bolt/barrel extension, but has more bolt thrust than a case with a smaller ID at the same PRESSURES....Typically, ID and OD both change with rim diameter. FWIW...

I have received some credit as designer of the first 30 cal Grendel based cartridge and have done a boat load of testing with variations on the Grendel case....It's a WINNER of a case, no doubt. My original intent was to make "major power factor" in USPSA 3 gun matches....with an AR15, and it worked...reliably. The US Army Marksmanship Unit picked it up and kicked butt with it. Long story...
Anyway, it shot too well to overlook in an AR and a couple of good BR bolt guns. I now shoot it in BR and have never felt outgunned with it vs 30BR's and the same basic cartridge is what beat the 40 year old record for small group at 100 while everyone shot a ppc at every match for 40 years, trying to do the same.

That said, the larger the case head, the more bolt thrust and the AR15 bolt is, IME, the weakest link of a very good semi auto platform.
What I found is simply that you can get "close" to bolt gun performance with .223, regarding pressures...and considerably less for the Grendel based cartridges, proportionately speaking. Even published load data shows the pressure difference at max.

Yes, there are some "better" bolts out there now. None that I've seen have taken the pressure that a cheapo .223 bolt can...IME, the worst option for a bolt is the cheapo 7.62 bolts. Alexander and others have made stronger than average Grendel bolts that are rated to around 50,000psi, 55000 for the 5.56. I've tested most of them to point of failure. Bolt failure comes sooner, proportionately with a larger case head...IME.

The Grendel is a great case to work with but it excels at bolt gun pressures. It can be very, very good at AR15 pressures but like the PPC, it shines when pressures are up there. Burn rate and port location matter too, in terms of bolt life but suffice it to say this, my BR load broke lugs from a 7.62x39 bolt...on the very first firing!

People will defend the AR15 platform...and it's very good, but facts are facts. I'd stay away from the BR bolt faces,....JMHO.

The "good" Grendel bolts are worthwhile if you go with that case head.(I recommend), but in the AR15 platform, the smaller case head and bolt thrust of a 223/5.56 head make it hard to beat.

Again, this is just my view....YMMV.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Just going to say what is my opinion on this and leave it at that...There will likely be others.

Bolt thrust is a function of pressure and area. The BR requires not only a yet thinner bolt/barrel extension, but has more bolt thrust than a case with a smaller ID at the same PRESSURES....Typically, ID and OD both change with rim diameter. FWIW...

I have received some credit as designer of the first 30 cal Grendel based cartridge and have done a boat load of testing with variations on the Grendel case....It's a WINNER of a case, no doubt. My original intent was to make "major power factor" in USPSA 3 gun matches....with an AR15, and it worked...reliably. The US Army Marksmanship Unit picked it up and kicked butt with it. Long story...
Anyway, it shot too well to overlook in an AR and a couple of good BR bolt guns. I now shoot it in BR and have never felt outgunned with it vs 30BR's and the same basic cartridge is what beat the 40 year old record for small group at 100 while everyone shot a ppc at every match for 40 years, trying to do the same.

That said, the larger the case head, the more bolt thrust and the AR15 bolt is, IME, the weakest link of a very good semi auto platform.
What I found is simply that you can get "close" to bolt gun performance with .223, regarding pressures...and considerably less for the Grendel based cartridges, proportionately speaking. Even published load data shows the pressure difference at max.

Yes, there are some "better" bolts out there now. None that I've seen have taken the pressure that a cheapo .223 bolt can...IME, the worst option for a bolt is the cheapo 7.62 bolts. Alexander and others have made stronger than average Grendel bolts that are rated to around 50,000psi, 55000 for the 5.56. I've tested most of them to point of failure. Bolt failure comes sooner, proportionately with a larger case head...IME.

The Grendel is a great case to work with but it excels at bolt gun pressures. It can be very, very good at AR15 pressures but like the PPC, it shines when pressures are up there. Burn rate and port location matter too, in terms of bolt life but suffice it to say this, my BR load broke lugs from a 7.62x39 bolt...on the very first firing!

People will defend the AR15 platform...and it's very good, but facts are facts. I'd stay away from the BR bolt faces,....JMHO.

The "good" Grendel bolts are worthwhile if you go with that case head.(I recommend), but in the AR15 platform, the smaller case head and bolt thrust of a 223/5.56 head make it hard to beat.

Again, this is just my view....YMMV.

Question for you. If I read you right, you are saying that the 30 cal Grendel and the 30 BR can achieve the same degree of accuracy when used in a bolt gun. If this is true, it sounds like a good project for my next build.

How accurate is this round at one to three hundred yards? Would that mean that the 6mm Grindel can compare to the 6 PPC for short range bench rest shooting?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Question for you. If I read you right, you are saying that the 30 cal Grendel and the 30 BR can achieve the same degree of accuracy when used in a bolt gun. If this is true, it sounds like a good project for my next build.

How accurate is this round at one to three hundred yards? Would that mean that the 6mm Grindel can compare to the 6 PPC for short range bench rest shooting?

Well...it owns the world record for smallest 5 shot group at 100. Yes, it shoots extremely well. If I thought a 30br was better, I could be shooting one tomorrow.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Question for you. If I read you right, you are saying that the 30 cal Grendel and the 30 BR can achieve the same degree of accuracy when used in a bolt gun. If this is true, it sounds like a good project for my next build.

How accurate is this round at one to three hundred yards? Would that mean that the 6mm Grindel can compare to the 6 PPC for short range bench rest shooting?

...and I'm playing with a 6 Grendel now. I shot it most of last season. I don't think it gives up a thing at 100 but is superior at 200 imho. I shoot 80 great bullets at 3300 fps with it.

 

[Hoser]

I am shooting a 6 Grendel with 105 Bergers and am very happy. Not a 22 PPC, but close.

 

[243Mendoza]

I did break a lug on an Alexander Arms bolt lug shooting an AR chambered in 243LBC with 40deg shoulder. I have now a JP bolt...so far so good