I was shocked too see case capacity.... I’m not into msr s at the moment so can’t say much there but in a bolt gun, shooting heavy .224s my preference would be 22-250 or 223 with fast twist and sacrifice barrel life a bit.
224 valkyrie
- Thread starter wboggs
- Start date
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
^^^This. One of the keys to getting the 90+ gr bullets to shoot in a .223 Rem is seating depth. Obviously, if one is restricted to loading to mag length, it might make tuning in seating depth for these bullets much more challenging than for a rifle with an appropriate long freebore and no restrictions on COAL. Nonetheless, it might well be worth the effort given the BCs of the 90+ gr bullets and the predicted velocities they could be driven from the .224V.
At first I was on the 224V bandwagon.
I know a guy that made a wildcat cartridge very similar, he's one of the members on this site. He was able to get 90's going 2900 fps out of a 24" barrel. The catch was it would only work with one brand of really tough brass and with a certain powder, and the pressures were high but the brass could handle it.
Well apparently what's happening now is the available 224V brass can't handle those higher pressures so were seeing much less velocity than some would have hoped. Plus the AR guys are trying to go with 18-22" barrels and it's those velocities we see most often.
But you never know, maybe some manufacturer will make some strong brass for 224V which would help things.
I recently went with 223AI with a 27" barrel. I'll use strong brass and seat the 90's out of the neck shoulder junction. Hopefully I can get 2850 fps which I will be happy with considering the small amount of powder it takes.
I wouldn't mind revisiting 224V later on after a few years when reamers, bullets, brass, magazines and mag adapters get more dialed in.
I'd wondered about the Federal brass too, and as you say brass quality / strength will be key factors as to whether this cartridge has a future in bolt guns.
If enough AR shooters adopt it though, the choice will improve. It certainly appears to have promise. I have a friend who is waiting on cases arriving from the USA for his newly built Valkyrie - I'll watch his results and progress with interest. He's not one to use mild loads!
Im just going to pass on what I've learned here the past few weeks with regard to this cartridge. I have a a 20 inch upper I've been working with , gathering some data and assessing its potential and comparison to the .223 in several ways.
For starters, its clear to me the industry hasn't quite wrapped its head around what a 90 gr. pill needs to shoot reliably under all conditions because almost everything I've found on the production side of things involves a 7 twist. Having said that if you're gonna build ,do it on a 6.5 twist emphatically.
Anecdotally, my experience here in Phoenix at Ben Avery working 90's at 600 and 1k in a .223 is clearly evident that a true 7 twist will work reliably at 600 with either the Berger or the SMK. Im running a 7 twist in a 26 inch Walther and 6.5 in 28 inch Krieger . Both are on gas guns. What is also very clear is that the 7 twist does not shoot either bullet reliably at 1k. The load will run 1 moa or less approximately 50 percent of the time and 2 moa (ten ring) the other fifty percent. Every now and again a flyer goes into the 8/9 ring usually a corner shot when it happens.
One of the fellas here however, does run a 7 twist on a palma rig and does very well with it....pretty sure he uses Kreiger. I'M not implying it cant be done but the 6.5 does hold the elevation much better at 1k with my tubes . So you can take the chance if you wish.
Im not trying to start controversy here with regard to the powder choice I am working with now in this case. I will be happy to answer questions about it if there are any. I have been running a 50/50 blend of H4895 AND VARGET in the .223 and .308 since 2011. Several trips to the nationals at Perry have yielded very good results. My son won the Long Range u/25 back in 2014 shooting it in his Palma rifle and we've won State Championships using it in both the AR platforms and the bolt guns. Having said that, I have concluded that it is safe and acceptable for me to use.
All data you see here from me is with that blend in the .224 valkyrie.
Brass..... Do not waste your time with Federal unless you are desperate. I fired 20 rounds of factory Federal Fusion loaded with their 90 Gr bullet.(SOFT POINT) The numbers on the Oehler out of the 20 inch production stainless 7 twist I used for this information ran 2738 avg. SD -0 for three rounds.Take that for what its worth. Four of the twenty cases I fired would not hold a Remington 71/2 at all after one firing, typical Federal in my experience . I chose the 71/2 deliberately because it is sightly smaller than the BR-4 . Thinking if its good to go with a 7 1/2 then its good to go with a BR-4 . Two other cases had very light tension in the primer pocket upon seating . A no go for me. Incidentally ,I pulled a federal loaded round and it contained 27.8 gr. of a ball/ spherical type of powder . You draw your own conclusions.
I am using the Starline brass at this time because it is the best option available in my opinion. All data below is with Starline brass. Initial impressions are its ok but not close to Lapua if your wondering.
Ill start with 90 SMK and go from there. Keeping in mind they're loaded magazine length at 2.250 and tested that way . I did not shoot them 015 off like I normally do in my .223 . They're jumping approximately .050 best I can tell without a case comparator.
24.5 gr. 2698 SD-22 REM 7 1/2
25 gr gr. 2764 SD-13 REM 7 1/2
25.5 gr. 2815 SD-19 REM 7 1/2
My target velocity with SMK is 2820 FPS . Where they lay down best for me in both 26 and 28 inch tube . FYI stopped there .
AT 300 yards initially with 25.5 gr and BR-4 5 short group ....4 under an inch and one flyer at 2 oclock in the 9 ring on the 300 yard mr target . Was about four inches away from the others at 12 oclock mid ten ring.
Went to Avery and shot 10 rounds at 1k with 25.4 gr. and ten with 25.5 . 4 1/2 moa wind on the gun it went
192-9 x. I had flyers into 9 ring on the corners on 4 occasions ,lost a couple to wind and had an 8 at 7 oclock . My conclusion thus far is its the barrel and twist rate... buttoned and not a true 7. I could be wrong but thats where im leaning.Too much precession and nutation too early.
82 Berger 2.250 25.7 gr BR-4 2903 FPS SUB 1/2 MOA at 300 yards. Best guess is they're .030 OFF the lands at 2.250 . They looked good initially on the five shot group.
25.8 gr. opened up to two inches at 300 .
Ill spare the detail on 75 Hornady and 77 TMK .
25.5 gr 75 Hornady ran 2938 avg. for reference.
25.9 gr 77 TMK no speed checked but smoked a primer . 5 shot was sub 1/2 at 300 . I can answer more about those but this post is already too long.
Be advised 27.5 gr. H4895 fills the case to the neck shoulder junction. It appears the case will hold about 2 grains more powder than a .223 . I believe it will produce up to 100 to 125 fps more velocity over a .223 case with the biggest advantage being the ability to run heavies mag length. Not sure 90's will produce reliable results with jump in excess of .030 . Throat erosion is obviously a consideration because 2.250 is it. Of course shooting them single feed off the lands, or in for that matter, at 600 and 1k is an easy breather. I would think something on the order of 2950-3000 ish is very doable in 28/30 inch tube.
I would not shoot across the course with this cartridge with a barrel length of less than 24 inches with 26 probably being a good choice . Anything longer is a benefit to case life. Long range/ prone id go 30. Even a PRS match would necessitate something in excess of 20 inches for me.
Brass. its the week link . If Lapua ever makes it life is better.
I like the case geometry . On that note the Starline brass did not stretch at all after firing and remained under 1.600 after the first sizing.
2.250 is OAL mag length for length tolerant type but is not with this case. 2.140 OAL on a 75 Hornady gets it out of the lands about .020 . The 77 TMK is even deeper. Dont sweat that because its a good thing .Just dont make the mistake I made and load those into this case at 2.250 because you're way into the lands . .110-.120 thou. The 75 wont chamber anyway if you forget . Novice mistake ill own it.
Good luck fellas.
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Why hello Nez.
SAAMI freebore is .046 I believe. You need to go .150 to get the Berger where you want it.
Thanks, Phil.
You must be proud of that young man of yours, he is an accomplished shooter now. I probably would not recognize him if I were to see him on the range. It has been awhile since I finished the project in the Valley.
Nez
Thank you for your report Phil. I was afraid that the FC brass would be like this. Back in the days many moons ago when we were all rooting around for good once-fired 308 Win Boxer primed 308 brass I soon learned never to buy Federal as the primers would barely stay in their pockets after that single factory load firing, and I've heard it said a good few times by others about a variety of FC cartridge designs in the years that followed.
The Valkyrie looks like an interesting and useful cartridge. Although we can't own semi-auto AR-15s here (the UK), we have a lot of very efficient side-handle straight-pulls in use and some users are looking at the Valkyrie as an alternative to 223. The brass is probably no great issue for them as they run their loads at a bit lower pressures than most 'proper AR' shooters can to keep manual extraction sweet. My interest as with many on this forum is instead in long-freebore chamber bolt gun use, but brass quality will ultimately make of break the cartridge in this role. So here's hoping there will be enough interest generated by it to see somebody produce strong and good quality cases in due course.
Laurie ,
Hornady is producing brass as well. Haven't been overly impressed with it in the past but its definitely better than Federal. I think more folks are gonna pick this up and run with it. 90's and 95's should drive it into demand I would think. Lots of variables of course, but this case will support both of those bullets very well. I think a bolt gun is where this thing will really shine in terms of performance. 6.5 exterior ballistics on an AR platform, a possibility if 90 gr pills run accurately enough over the the life of the barrel at mag length. That is my question. Highpower is not a problem single feed . Mag length accuracy is what I'm after . Im looking at it for Law Enforcement practicality within the tactical community as well. But that wont happen until factory production from multiple companies here in the U.S begin to produce.
Fed. adjusting 224V SMK load - https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/07/13/valkyrie-sierra-matchking/
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