.223 Rem / 90 and 1,200 Yards

[Matt Pitchon]

Although I haven't tried RL-17 myself, I have heard that it works. I understand that 2800+ velocities are possible with compressed loads. My recollection is loads in the 27-28gr range produced such results.

Once again, I have tried this myself.

 

[Laurie]

26gn Re17 gave 2,750 fps with the 90gn VLD in my barrel. Groups were so-so over a 1.5gn weight spread and ES values high, so I didn't try any further.

IMR-4007SSC, another 4350 equivalent in burning terms, did better at 2,815 fps over 26.2gn and some nice groups, but again ES was generally large.

With Re15 so much better than either, I didn't see any benefits in trying them further.

 

[RustyBall]

.223 reminton, Savage 12FV, 69 Sierra BTHP, 1 in 9 twist, are not limited to less than 500 yards like most say, here is proof, see pic attached

 

[Steveb]

Laurie

Have you have any issues with the 90 VLD regarding marginal stability out of 1 in 7 twist barrels? According to Litz's stability calculator this bullet is marginal in this regard in 1 in 7's. I am finding I am loosing the odd point which I can't explain due to bullets out of the group that aren't fliers but I still can't explain why they did what they did. The occurs mostly at the 600 meter ranges and further indicating to me that something is happening as the bullets slow down. Also it occurs in slightly choppy air that seldom shows on the flags or mirage.

I shoot along side a very good shooter who users a 6mm Dasher with Berger 105's and we match points in the same conditions out to 500 but at 600 and beyond I always seem to be slightly behind in points and V's at the end of the day.

Sorry but I am shooting these bullets out of a 22BR at 2900 fps.

Any info?

Steve

 

[cmillard]

if you read some of Laurie's posts, he is shooting this combo out of a .223 with a True Flight barrel 1-7" twist at 1200 yards. i would say that this combo is working great for him!

 

[Laurie]

I shoot along side a very good shooter who users a 6mm Dasher with Berger 105's and we match points in the same conditions out to 500 but at 600 and beyond I always seem to be slightly behind in points and V's at the end of the day.

Steve,

er ... I think that's one reason why more people shoot the 6 Dasher competitively at long range than the .22 BR.

I reckon 1-7" twist is fine for the 90s, and there is anecdotal evidence that the originally recommended 1-6.5" rate was a major part of why it took 90s so long to get a head of steam up in .223 Rem.

A stability factor of 1.4 under all conditions as advised by Messrs Miller and Litz adds a lot of extra insurance into the pot. An Sg of 1.3 under normal conditions is plenty high enough I reckon and have used considerably lower values successfully at times with some combinations in .308 Win. For that matter, so has Bryan Litz as he was winning any bullet weight matches last year with the 185gn Berger BTLR in a 1-13" twist barrel with a nominal case Sg of only 1.13!

Seriously though, I've given up wondering why some combinations do so well at 1,000yd and others don't. I'm just grateful when it happens!

 

[Steveb]

Thanks Laurie

I have been wondering if the stability is marginal in certain conditions using the 90's and given those conditions gives slightly increased group sizes. In perfect and windy conditions I don't notice much difference between the 2 cartridges as our scores appear to be very similar, however, in the slightly rougher conditions as you move from perfect into the windy conditions I do notice slight differences and was curious if you noticed this out of the 223 Rem. From my experience the 22BR competes well with most cartridges up to the bigger ones such as the 284 and 300's but improvements are always sought.

Steve

 

[rost495]

Hi Folks

New to this forum. Not new to competition though, but it was all service rifle... I ran 90jlks in the service rifle for the last years I shot.... I held HM in XC and LR classes and for that the 90 worked fine... but we used 600s to agg into the LR class, so it wasn't fair IMHO... And we had a more generous target....

Anyway at some point I"d like to play with FTR.... Would get me back to shooting a bit anyway and I have miles and miles of experience with the 223.

Question here RE max speeds, having talked with others RE max speeds and the 90s, it seems that at max speeds the ES and SD, which don't make that much difference at 600... just go the hell.... Or at least thats the theory.

My day in day out load was 90 jlks at 2720ish MV. Not a top end load as my top end loads would net right at 2800 fps. This from a 20 inch tube.

Where is the line on barrel length in your opinions if I try to play this? We always felt that at 26-28 it was at the point of no return but if 32 netted anything, other than barrel dwell time... it would be worth looking into.

Also to get to the max speeds(I never shot anything without moly...) are you doing anything but a bare bullet? IE odd grooves instead of even for less bullet distoration/pressure. Specific chambers like the Holliger to get the 90 out past the donut part of the case, IE like Laurie mentions. Coated bullets? Coated Barrels?

Seemed to me at the time of my experimenting, that a combo of lots of things added speed, but go to the wrong dimensioned barrel and you could not get up to speed without pressure... IE 3 groove Pac Nor vs 4 groove Krieger... you could loose almost 100 fps of usable MV.....

Thoughts as to a 5 groove in .224?

Twist? I found that years ago in the early 90s or so.. shooting a 7 twist trying N550 to get great groups, but slight oblong holes at 300 yards in testing here at home... but in a 20 inch tube. So we went and asked Pac Nor to do a 6.5 which we had to pay them to start.... but it solved that problem. I'm not a big fan of huge overstabilization, but I do have a 6 twist in teh safe that another shooter just had no luck with either..... Anyone shooting a 6.5 twist and if not, any reasons not to for the longer barrels? Common sense would dictate that if you run a 32 inch barrel, another 12 inches of barrel should net you enough speed to drop back to the 7 pretty easy.... Just searching for answers...

And searching to see if one could hit 2900 or 3000 since I could get to 2800 with a 20 inch tube. Some times you are at the point of no return though is why I'm asking.... folks running 30ish inch barrels at 2700 just seems like its a waste of barrel length? And could they possible be hampering speed at that length? One of the LaBerge clan thinks so....


Cut barrel instead of button? I MUCH prefer cut.... but I'm open to opinions.

Is anyone working loads up staring with Audette tests, RE the comments of a kernel or two of powder making all the difference.... IE in an Audette you develop so that it SHOULDN"T make a difference? just wondering if anyone uses that method anymore, its the only one I ever used once I found out about it.

Don't sweat, I'm no threat to any of the shooters anymore, I'd just be another hacker in the game.... but if I'm going to have to build to make it work, then I have always been of the opinion, don't leave anything on the table. (and no don't suggest 308... thats not what I"m talking about here...)

Thanks for any input, and thanks for a great read!
Jeff

 

[SpencerC]

What load are you running to get 2720 in a 20" barrel?

No reason to go faster than a 1-7" unless your location is extreme or your speeds are low, but they don't seem to be. Last year I ran a factory Savage 26" barrel that I was able to get 2820fps out of with a load of 24.4gn of Varget, also a 1-7". I now run a 30" Shilen select match 1-7", 6 groove button rifled barrel that I definitely can't complain about. This year I am using a light load to save brass life that really seems to work. I am using 23.5gn of N150 and get 2715fps with an ES=14 and a SD=4, can't ask for much better than that IMO. I also have a 8lb jug of Varget that I am going to open and work up some loads and see what it can do out of this 30" tube. I'm not really concerned if someone says a 30" barrel is a waste to shoot at slower speeds, it works great for me.. My next is a 30" Broughton 5c 1-7" that I have high hopes for, with claims of higher MV, easier cleaning and longer barrel life, hopefully that all holds true. Also, barrel length and contour will be determined by your allowable weight. Depending on the rest of your setup, you may be close to or over the weight limit for FTR.

IMO there is no difference in button vs cut rifled barrels as long as you stick with a reputable maker. Everyone can make real hummers, and everyone can make tomato stakes...Just reality.

I use naked bullets in a naked barrel and see no reason to change that, JMO. I don't believe you would be able to make it 3000, but if you did, you would have severely decreased your brass life. I wouldn't push them past the ~2820 node anyway, once you start getting into those high pressures, the slightest changes will show up that much sooner or more pronounced. If you want to really make the 90's fly into the 3000+ range, you should choose another cartridge that is more suited to the job.

A kernel or 2 shouldn't make a difference, but a .1gn does. I worked up my loads basically the same way as I would do for anything. I did do a test of 5 different loads with the only difference being a .1gn of powder and you can see the groups shrink and then open back up over the course of the test. The largest group group was approx .6MOA and smallest was in the .2's, so both would still be SUB-MOA but it was neat to see a consistent fall and rise of group size, a real show of barrel consistency IMO to see real results like that. That test was repeated 3 different occasions and revealed the same results each time.

Chamber will be personal preference, some run a Wylde chamber etc.. I use a .223 Rem match chamber with .252" neck which prefers Lapua brass. You can extend the throat of your barrel to suit you. On my Savage barrel I throated it so I could seat the body-boattail junction of the bullet above the neck-shoulder junction of the brass for an approximate OAL of 2.700". With the barrel I use now, I went only half the distance as I wanted to also shoot the 80SMK and 80AMAX and still have them seated far enough into the case. My OAL for the 90's now is 2.580" and since I neck turned my brass, I don't have any worry about donut issues. I may yet still have it pushed back another .125" to get into the next velocity node, but we'll see.

Anyway, that's just my take on things, YMMV.

 

[rost495]

1. its been since 2003 that I went to Perry last for Nationals, and my powder was probably 2001... just FWIW... LC brass, 25.7 N540.

2. A 30 inch barrel can be a waste IF its not faster... you are having to rely on that many more inches of barrel perfection, possibly another node of vibration and barrel lag time... I'd use 30 or 32 if it was netting me something, if not, then its a waste, but thats IMHO. grins.

3. Dont' care for buttons, they wear out faster than a good cut tube.. takes too much time working up data and such to short change barrel life for the same cost of barrel... IE I'd rather pay the same, but get another 500 or 1000 rounds if possible.

4. Naked is fine. But it won't net the same speed at the same pressure that coatings allow. You have to know how to run coatings and clean them. But as always I"m interested in what the crowds are doing now. My assumption would be that if you can make 2800 with ok pressure, then I can coat things and get another 75-100 fps for same pressure.

5. You are running Audette tests. Thats my favorite way of staying off that ragged edge.... accuracy not only jumps vertically but often horizontally at a node change...

6. Chambers are always personal, but in a bolt gun no rapid fire gun, no need in burning up precious powder space in the case with something like a wylde for a 90... I forget the OAL of my 90s, but they were no where near short.

Appreciate all the info. Good to hear about Varget, when I went to coated and heavy bullets in a 20 inch tube it fell on its face...Maybe it'll work for long tubes now.... It was a super powder.

BTW whats the scoop again on ES/SD... maxes for how many rounds group, for 1000... for 600 I would always disregard and it worked for 800 and 900 too, but 1000 got squirrely. I relied on shooting groups off my 600 yard bench out the back door instead of ES/SD because at least out to 600, the lowest ES/SD never gave the tightest groups.

Thanks, Jeff

 

[rost495]

Bump for more input?

 

[mysticplayer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrhB29UIpJ4

Thought you guys might enjoy one of my best groups at 500m with the 90gr Berger/Shilen/Savage FTR I put together.

I have no idea on what happened for shot #2 but waited a good long time if it was condition to pass. The rest just sort of worked itself out. I was adjusting for changing wind.

I am using a 28" 7 twist barrel and don't see the need to go longer. Tried 30" barrels but they didn't shoot any faster.

Don't know how to embed the video.

Enjoy...

Jerry

 

[rost495]

Where is the shot at the 37 second time frame that got fired but no bullet hole?

 

[TheSnake]

Where is the shot at the 37 second time frame that got fired but no bullet hole?

4 or 5 o'clock position in the black target above close to the edge.

 

[rost495]

Good catch. I didn't notice that one. And it ruins a great group with a vertical shot. Thanks!

 

[flatlander]

Jeff,
As mentioned in another thread, I've had good results with some of the old JLKs out of a 1:7.5tw. PacNor on a M70. It finished at just over 27", and is a 4-groove. This was a revelation to me, as we'd all been told that the 6.5tw bbls. were the only way to go. I'd had a really excellent PacNor 3-groove 6.5tw on an AR SR, but a couple of later PacNors were more-or-less flops, including a 26" spacegun bbl. that was never very good, and 'all done' at only 1500rds. Then along came a troublesome lot of JLKs in '03, and a 28" Krieger 6.5tw. that blew up everything but S77MKs, and I just left the rest of my 90s sitting under the bench for seven years.

Once I realized slower twists would work, I got interested in the 90s again. I considered a gaintwist, but decided to go with a 30" Bartlein 1:7.4 in med.Palma contour. It's still sitting in the shop while I wait on a 5R Bartlein, this one a 1:7.2tw, also med. Palma to finish at 30". Intention is to fit one or both of these bbls. to an Eliseo R5 tubegun that's currently wearing a 6BR bbl. I used a Pearce custom action on this project, and ordered it with a 2nd bolt with a 223 boltface, so it's a fairly simple process to swap bbls. & bolts without having to build another complete rifle. My boltgun reamer is one that Kiff refers to as a "match" reamer, with tight body dimensions, but a throat a bit longer than a Wylde. I've got a .224" throating reamer, so going a bit longer to allow for use with Berger 90VLDs is a simple option.

Still have a couple customers' rifles to get out the door before I can start working on a LR 223, but it's pretty high on my list of things to do this fall/winter.

 

[sbrabec]

What bore diameter .218 or .219 seems to work better with the 90 Berger VLD? I'm looking to order a new Bartlein 5r but need to know which bore to order. Thanks in advance....
Scott

 

[Taildrag15X]

My Krieger, 28" Bull, 1-7" is .218 and loves Berger 90 VLD's...........I'm going to replace it with the exact same thing when it's time.