223 reloading

[eab7-a]

I am new to reloading ar-15 rifles. My friend has a Barnes Precision ar-15 and wants me to reload some rounds for him. Can anyone give me some good reloading info. I reload for bolt guns but have never reloaded for gas rifles. Thanks for the info.

 

[wapiti25]

Make sure the brass is not too tight in the chamber. This can lead to slam fires, I would not reload for other's because of the liability that is involved. You risk everything.

 

[eab7-a]

I'm pretty sure i will be shooting the rifle as much as he does. You are very right, if i wasn't shooting it i would not be reloading it.

 

[Mattm0812]

Make sure you're using either full sized brass or new brass. Also, seat the bullets to SAAMI specs so you don't have any trouble with loading mags and chamber size.

You shouldn't need to crimp the bullets.

 

[jlow]

Wapiti25 is correct. It does not matter if you are shooting the rifle too, as long as your friend is shooting your reloads, you have liability.

There are at least two types of reloading errors, one is incorrect reloading i.e. your setup is incorrect. The second type is reloader error i.e. you just make a mistake in a few rounds. Testing the rounds yourself will help in the first but not in the second case. In your specific case, since you are new to reloading AR-15, you are at greater risk.

 

[eab7-a]

Message taken. Thanks for the advice.

 

[A_Gamehog]

Now that the "Lawyers" have spoken,

1). Always full length size your brass, always.

2). Trim to length

3). Use a thicker cup (CCI 450, AR specific, BR, rem 7 1/2's) on the primer to prevent slamfires. (I personally never had one) 10,000+ rds.

4). Be very exact on your OAL, 2.260 is max due to the magazine, I do 2.240-2.260 with good results. Loading to the lands with a magazine is futile. Use a steel magazine I prefer the Stoner/DPMS mags to all others.

5). Don't shoot the cheap russian or chinese ammo with laquer on it. In a hot chamer it will melt the laquer and "glue" it to your chamber when you least expect it.

AR-15's come with many different chambers, be very careful with using a "Nato round" as they are "Hotter" than the .223 std. Nato brass is usually thicker than domestic. less volume= more pressure.

Common sense is always your friend when loading the AR-15. There are no "shortcuts"

Standardize the brass to a certain type, eg. Lake City. For anything, target, plinking it works great.

Too light of a load and the action fails to cycle correctly, too hot and it can destroy the gas rings and worse.

.223 load:
works in a 1-9 or a 1-7 twist AR-15 or Bolt gun.

22 grains of IMR 4198 or H-4198 (near max) but work up to it. Safe in every rifle I load for.

Lake City Brass (sorted by year)

CCI 450 primers

52 or 53 Match bullets Sierra or Hornady (Hornady 53V-max) is the best varmint load I have.

Might be the easiest load to work up or "tune" you will ever find.

 

[savageshooter86]

really not much different than bolt gun reloading. I have been reloading the AR for about 9 months and haven't had any issues except 2 FTFs.

1) Always FL size brass

2) Bump shoulders 0.004" when FL sizing

3) Be sure to load so they will fit in magazine like previously mentioned

 

[mac86951]

From here, all I can add is that you'll find lots of loading info, but as you test watch for some powders that burn
less clean than others. Example, Varget is a great powder, I use it for 77gr Sierra MatchKings but it leaves my
rifle dirtier than a similarly loaded round using AR-Comp.

Check the .223 Article for all the info you'd ever want.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/
-Mac

 

[tunered]

Heres a little warning from Hornady about superperformance,

http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/superformance-in-gas-operated-firearms

 

[bigedp51]

eab7-a

1. The early M16 rifles had a infrequent slam fire problem if a single round was loaded in the chamber "without the magazine in place" and if the bolt release was pressed allowing the bolt to slam shut. When the magazine is in place the drag caused by feeding from the magazine slows the bolts forward motion and no slam fires occurred during testing.

The firing pin was made lighter and a thicker primer was used, the original primer in 5.56 ammunition was the same Remington primer used for .30 carbine ammunition. These early primer had thinner cups which were changed and these two changes reduce the slam fire problem to 1 in 10 million chance.

Military brass is "NOT" thicker, it is made harder to withstand the slightly larger diameter and longer military chamber. (another myth cleared up)

Early M16 cases made by civilian manufactures were too soft in the base and were just one of the early jaming problems.

In the photo below on the far left and right are military 5.56 cases, and in the center is a Federal .223 cases which is thinner in the web area. These Federal cases are causing popped primers from enlarged primer pockets. NOTE: some commercial .223 cases can not be loaded to the higher 5.56 pressures.

Load date for the AR 15 rifle
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Load data for bolt action rifles for "reference" The AR has gas port pressure requirements and you will see different loading data.
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

Case-Head Swipe article caused by the wrong gas port pressures.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/8720/case-head-swipe/

5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

Brass vs. Steel Cased Ammo – An Epic Torture Test
(please notice the lacquer or polymer coating on Russian ammo does "NOT" stick in the chamber)
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

Reloading Information
http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/info-reloading.htm

Primers and Pressure Analysis
(do not use .019, .020 or .021 thickness primer cups)
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/primers-and-pressure-analysis/

The AR15.com Ammo-Oracle
http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammracle_Mirror.htm#diff

AR-15 Match Loads
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/arloads.htm

223 / 5.56 reloading
http://www.223reloads.com/home/223-5-56-info/223-5-56-reloading

I have three .223/5.56 rifles, one bolt action and two AR 15 rifles. And the Savage .223 bolt action has a longer throat (Freebore .0566) than a military AR 15.

And three five gallon buckets full of .223/5.56 brass. ;D

 

[mac86951]

Wow, I know it is a sign of the times, but Seeing all that brass makes me jealous. I've got ~300 cases total.

-Mac

 

[bigedp51]

Wow, I know it is a sign of the times, but Seeing all that brass makes me jealous. I've got ~300 cases total.

-Mac

I was very lucky, our police and swat teams were practicing every Monday and I had Mondays off. Needless to say I was there every Monday they practiced and made sure I brought my brass magnet. ;D

The good part is one five gallon bucket is all Remington brass and the primers are not crimped. The bad news is the remaining two buckets are crimped Lake City brass and processing the primer pockets is so slow. I have the RCBS Primer Pocket Swager Combo "BUT" the swedger rod is so hard to find and get the case neck into and slow s things down quite a bit.

I just ordered a new primer pocket reamer and the CH4D swaging tool that should speed things up. It lets you "SEE" what your doing and you work at the top of the press.

http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/priming/419000

Squeeze Play II: The Continuing Examination of Solutions For Crimped Primers In Mil-Surp Or Commercial Ammunition
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/squeezeplay2/index.asp

 

[mac86951]

Awesome, Thanks for the pics. Mine were all Federals with crimps, so I got the technique down with the RCBS swagger, but it is a bit of a pain.

No police brass here, instead:
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/01/09/abqnewsseeker/abq-police-worker-accused-of-embezzlement.html

Maybe we can pay recycle prices for it?

-Mac

 

[bigedp51]

Awesome, Thanks for the pics. Mine were all Federals with crimps, so I got the technique down with the RCBS swagger, but it is a bit of a pain.

No police brass here, instead:
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/01/09/abqnewsseeker/abq-police-worker-accused-of-embezzlement.html

Maybe we can pay recycle prices for it?

-Mac

Most big controlled ranges recycle their brass that are put in the gun clubs buckets. "BUT" these Police and SWAT teams were doing walking drills between the 50 yard line and walking up to the target boards while rapidly firing and leapfrogging. I picked up the cases the SWAT teams missed and were still laying on the ground between the firing line and the boards. There were so many police and SWAT teams practicing and not picking up all their cases I had a field day picking up once fired brass over several weeks of Police training.

 

[wvuredneck09]

Just curious as I have not loaded much for my AR. Are BR4's harder or softer than CCI 41's? Are they hard enough to not have much concern for slam fires?

 

[savageshooter86]

I believe they are softer. I use WOLF 556M primers and they work well. Never tried a "std" primer in the AR just for the added safety of preventing a slam fire

 

[bigedp51]

Just curious as I have not loaded much for my AR. Are BR4's harder or softer than CCI 41's? Are they hard enough to not have much concern for slam fires?

The primers that caused the very "infrequent" M16 slam fire problem in the early 1960s were Remington 6 1/2 primers and they have a .020 cup.

These "infrequent" slam fires only happened when a single round was loaded into the chamber and "IF" the bolt was allowed to slam shut "without" the magazine in place. It NEVER happened with the magazine in place to slow the bolt velocity down by feeding from the magazine. (drag) The "cure" was a lighter firing pin and thicker primers.

My A2 HBAR below and the primers I use.

Sierra reloading manual. (the Remington 7 1/2 primer has a .025 thick cup)

The CCI Military primers No.34 and No. 41 have a .025 thick cup and a lower anvil for Mil-spec sensitivity. (not needed and not used on .223 ammunition that is fired in the AR rifle)

Any primer with .025 thick cup is more than safe to use and I have never heard of anyone having a problem with thinner primer cups. By making the firing pin lighter this "infrequent" slam fire problem was reduced to 1 in 10 million chance of happening without the magazine in place.

I believe they are softer. I use WOLF 556M primers and they work well. Never tried a "std" primer in the AR just for the added safety of preventing a slam fire

And you two guys didn't read the information I posted earlier or look at your reloading manuals or any of the links I provided.

"All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read"
Attila the Hun : (or was it Genghis Khan)

 

[wvuredneck09]

I agree with the infrequency although I've seen it happen on a M1A due to head space issues. Don't want it happening to me needless to say. In regards to reading I did take some time to scan and bookmark much of the wonderful info you posted however I didn't notice anything in regards to the primer cup thickness that you posted above. My apologies for asking a direct question to someone who I feel is well read on the issue and experienced in reloading for this particular rifle. No offence but it would take me years to read and absorb what Bryan Litz knows about ballistics but if I only needed a quick answer I'd prefer to just ask him.

 

[bigedp51]

I agree with the infrequency although I've seen it happen on a M1A due to head space issues. Don't want it happening to me needless to say. In regards to reading I did take some time to scan and bookmark much of the wonderful info you posted however I didn't notice anything in regards to the primer cup thickness that you posted above. My apologies for asking a direct question to someone who I feel is well read on the issue and experienced in reloading for this particular rifle. No offence but it would take me years to read and absorb what Bryan Litz knows about ballistics but if I only needed a quick answer I'd prefer to just ask him.

You do not owe me any apologies, my posting was dry humor and had smiley faces it.
(did you really think Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan told their warriors to read books?)

From the M1A manual

The M1A is designed and built to specifications to shoot standard factory military 7.62 NATO ammunition. The specifications for standard military ammunition include harder primers to withstand the slight indentation from the firing pin when the bolt chambers a cartridge. This slight indentation is normal. The use of civilian ammunition with more sensitive primers or handloads with commercial primers and/or improperly seated primers increase the risk of primer detonation when the bolt slams forward. This unexpected "slam fire" can occur even if the trigger is not being pulled and if the safety is on. Use of military specification ammunition will help avoid this.

On military 7.62 ammunition the primer must be seated and recessed .008 below the case. And the majority of slam fires are caused by using reloads that do not have the primer seated properly. All American made large rifle primers have a primer cup approximately .027 thick.

My Hornady manual lists standard Winchester WLR primers with their .308 Winchester M1A service rifle load data. Again another reloading manual that lists primers other than CCI Military primers No.34 and No. 41 for service rifles. The only difference in CCI Military primers is the anvil sits lower in the primer cup and the firing pin must travel further to ignite the primer. (less sensitive)

If you want to be ultra safe then use the CCI Military primers and uniform the primer pockets on your "non-military commercial cartridge cases". Meaning what good are these military primers if the primer isn't seated .008 below the surface of the cases. (recessed) Which defeats the purpose of having a shorter anvil.

CHOOSING THE RIGHT PRIMER - A PRIMER ON PRIMERS (Very good read)
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0