Recently, I had Shilen re-barrel my Remington 223V to 223 improved using their select match grade blank with a 1 in 9 twist, varmint contour. Having never had an improved or wildcat cartridge I am looking forward to working up loads for a prairie dog hunt next spring. However, after reading various articles and forum comments about the fire forming procedure, I am having problems with fire forming cases. I have used 3 loads as follows: New LC brass, Rem 6 1/2 primers, 25 grains H335 behind Nosler BT 55 grain with a COL of 2.260. I then fired loads used in my Stag Arms HB which is WW cases, Remington 7 1/2, Varget 25.3 grains, Sierra HPBT 69 grain bullet with a COL of 2.260. I also fired Winchester factory 55 grain ball ammo. 28 of the 90 cases show signs of incipient case separation after fire forming. Is this about normal case loss while fire forming? I spoke with a Shilen rep who suggested dropping down to 23 grains of H335 and seating the bullets out to touch the lands. I haven't tried this as yet. I would appreciate any suggestions or comments regarding this issue. Thanks in advance.
223 improved fire forming issues
- Thread starter Martman
- Start date
this is what I would do.first if you can anneal the cases do so.then back down a full grain to 24.0gn's of H335.then seat the 55gn bullets into the lands.doing this will help keeping the case tight to the bolt face.this allows the pressure to blow the case out before the bullet is able to exit.
doing it this way has worked for me every time in my 300ackley.andlet me say it works great.because I have even blown out the case body/neck area of a 300 H&H to a 300ackley doing just as I said.the key is putting the bulet into the lands.
doing it this way has worked for me every time in my 300ackley.andlet me say it works great.because I have even blown out the case body/neck area of a 300 H&H to a 300ackley doing just as I said.the key is putting the bulet into the lands.
It is very common practice to chamber an Ackley improved a couple of thousandths short, to make sure the case does not move forward when struck by the firing pin when originally fireforming.
Your gunsmith may not have done this.
You can achieve similar results by seating the bullets tighter in the case than usual, and seated out so they engage the lands enough to require a little force to close the bolt.
Also you should always use new brass when fireforming, it's much more maleable.
I've been using the .223AI for the last five years, and fireforming several thousand rounds, and have had no problems at all using the above mechanical techniques.
Use your standard/maximum load for the .223 when fireforming, you should have excellent results.
Your gunsmith may not have done this.
You can achieve similar results by seating the bullets tighter in the case than usual, and seated out so they engage the lands enough to require a little force to close the bolt.
Also you should always use new brass when fireforming, it's much more maleable.
I've been using the .223AI for the last five years, and fireforming several thousand rounds, and have had no problems at all using the above mechanical techniques.
Use your standard/maximum load for the .223 when fireforming, you should have excellent results.
My buddy seats well into the lands with .003 neck tension for his.223AI, and also applies a crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp Die as it raises the shot-start pressure a bit and helps blow the case out before the bullet has even started to move. He also uses new brass, as even brass that has been fired and sized 2-3 times has work hardened a bit. Annealing may help, but i think new brass will be best.
bigedp51
jwv2001 said:
Greasing or oiling your your cartridge cases subjects your bolt to "TWICE" the bolt thrust as a dry cartridge.
The Firearms manufactures tell you to NOT lube your cases, the ammunition companies tell you to NOT lube your cases, the reloading companies tell you to NOT lube your cases, the U.S Military tells you to NOT lube your cases and the British military tells you to NOT lube your cases.
I'm not sure what closing hard on standard brass feels like. There is no excess force needed to close the bolt on the new lake city brass (neck sized only) as compared to factory winchester or my full length sized 223 reloads. I cross slotted the neck of a lake city case, inserted a Nosler 55 grain and closed the bolt on that. I felt some resistance as the long seated bullet was pushed back into the case. This miked at an average of 1.778 from the ogive to the base of the case. Using this as a guide I have loaded 25 rounds seated out to 1.778. When I close the bolt on these rounds they then mike at 1.775 + or - .001. Due to the way I measured with the slotted case I am assuming a margin of error of + or - 1-3 thousands shouldn't be critical with regard to how far or how much pressure is applied to the bullet by the lands.
What do you think.
What do you think.
First and foremost, Rem 6.5 primers are for LOW pressure centerfire rounds, such as the 22 Hornet. Check the info on the box.
In five 223 AI's that I personally built and own, I let the bullet run long so I have a 2 to 3 thousandths jam into the lands, load 1.0 grain less than a max 223 load, and fireform on paper or varmints.
In five 223 AI's that I personally built and own, I let the bullet run long so I have a 2 to 3 thousandths jam into the lands, load 1.0 grain less than a max 223 load, and fireform on paper or varmints.
Martman, I sure am puzzled by your problem. I have a PacNor 223AI barrel on my Savage M12 and have fireformed 100 IMI, 100 Winchester and 200 Lapua cases with full-tilt .223 Rem. loads and have never lost a case, never had a problem at all, and the loads are as accurate as the final AI loads.
Please do not ever lube your cases or the chamber. Loading the bullets into the lands will help keep the case back against the bolt face and you should try that.
Good luck and keep it safe.
Please do not ever lube your cases or the chamber. Loading the bullets into the lands will help keep the case back against the bolt face and you should try that.
Good luck and keep it safe.
Dimwit Flathead
It's the Juggernaut, Bitch!
According to a very well-known gunsmith, when fire-forming new cases: set the die down to the shell holder and full-length size, expand the necks, repeat the process. This will stiffen the neck brass a bit if you need to turn necks. Load with a fairly stiff charge of powder (I use the accuracy load from the Sierra manual) and seat the bullet into the lands. Coat the cartridge with a thin film of household oil and fire. I get perfect results using this technique. Y'all can say what you will about firing lubricated cartridges but I've never had any issues of any sort using the above procedure.
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
First, use a different primer. The 6-1/2 is for low pressure rounds. Use a 7-1/2 or BR4.
Case head separation means too much headspace. Sounds like the chamber is long. You need to feel pressure on the bolt when chambering a case. The chamber has to be cut shorter than the casehead to neck/shoulder measurement of a case. It's called "crush." That crush keeps the case hard against the bolthead for good shoulder forming. It also seals the case in the chamber. The number usually quoted is .004" short, but that's not enough. Brass can vary that much from headstamp to headstamp and even within the same headstamp. That number can be anything you want it to be. You can go .010" or more short and it's ok. My .223AI chambers are .015" short and it works beautiful. Sounds like a lot but it doesn't take much pressure to close the bolt. Reason for that is, new brass in an AI chamber contacts at the neck/shoulder junction, that's it. Over 1000 cases formed perfectly and not one loss. If your headspace is long, try different brass or neck to 6mm and then go back down and make a false shoulder.
Don't go by overall length. Make a split neck case and use it to find the lands. Then get an ogive measurement - length from casehead to bullet ogive - using a Davidson gauge from Sinclair. It's pretty easy. Then just seat .010" or so off the lands. With proper headspace you get proper gas sealing at the neck/shoulder. And with proper headspace you don't ever need to jam the lands fireforming......and you do want proper headspace.
Fireforming, start with a load that's about book max for std. 223 and go up slowly until you find best accuracy. It'll be faster than a topend .223 load and very accurate. Then load a bunch and go shoot.
And don't lube the cases. Regardless of what you may read on someone's website, it's a poor solution to a problem that doesn't even exist with a properly cut chamber.
Case head separation means too much headspace. Sounds like the chamber is long. You need to feel pressure on the bolt when chambering a case. The chamber has to be cut shorter than the casehead to neck/shoulder measurement of a case. It's called "crush." That crush keeps the case hard against the bolthead for good shoulder forming. It also seals the case in the chamber. The number usually quoted is .004" short, but that's not enough. Brass can vary that much from headstamp to headstamp and even within the same headstamp. That number can be anything you want it to be. You can go .010" or more short and it's ok. My .223AI chambers are .015" short and it works beautiful. Sounds like a lot but it doesn't take much pressure to close the bolt. Reason for that is, new brass in an AI chamber contacts at the neck/shoulder junction, that's it. Over 1000 cases formed perfectly and not one loss. If your headspace is long, try different brass or neck to 6mm and then go back down and make a false shoulder.
Don't go by overall length. Make a split neck case and use it to find the lands. Then get an ogive measurement - length from casehead to bullet ogive - using a Davidson gauge from Sinclair. It's pretty easy. Then just seat .010" or so off the lands. With proper headspace you get proper gas sealing at the neck/shoulder. And with proper headspace you don't ever need to jam the lands fireforming......and you do want proper headspace.
Fireforming, start with a load that's about book max for std. 223 and go up slowly until you find best accuracy. It'll be faster than a topend .223 load and very accurate. Then load a bunch and go shoot.
And don't lube the cases. Regardless of what you may read on someone's website, it's a poor solution to a problem that doesn't even exist with a properly cut chamber.
It does sound like your chamber is long.An ackley improved chamber is designed to headspace on the shoulder/neck junction,and provide a slight crush fit when closing the bolt,on factory ammo.Your loads with virgin brass should feel the same.If that isn't happening,then the bullet seated into the lands is about all you can do to prevent head seperation(short of having the barrel set back,till a no-go gage will not allow the bolt to close.)If I were loading the parent case (virgin brass),I would only partial neck size (2/3 down the neck)with a neck bushing die or neck die,and not size the body at all.I want that, crush fit feel, when chambering the case, without a bullet seated.
I am a little concerned about the case failure rate as my reviews of multiple forums and other sites seemed to indicate that you just load and shoot .223 factory/new brass loads which should result in a properly formed AI case. My discussion with the Shilen representative was somewhat short and to the point in that he suggested dropping down 1 grain and seating the bullet to touch the lands. He did say if I experienced case failure after trying his recommendation to call back. At the time I didn't have enough data to pursue additional discussion. I am going to the range today and shoot some loads based on recommendations by 5ring, dry bean and 338 lapua. I'll post the results later today.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.