223 improved 40° shoulder help.

[bobcat93]

Can some one tell me why this happens?, I get some broken cases when fire forming and some times when shooting. This is the forth reload for this case. Third reload after annealing. Is was once fired lake city bulk brass. I have a tight chamber and neck turn my cases. When I fire form I use a medium load and bullet is seated into the rifling.
All I can come up with is the brass is stretching, and failed. Perhaps I need to use new lapua brass

 

[SmokinJoe]

I assume this is a bolt gun, right? You have some serious headspace issues. When you fireform, there should be an aprox 0.010" interference fit of the brass in the chamber to insure that it doesn't move forward from the firing pin strike to prevent stretch. Then after fireforming, make sure that you are not bumping the shoulder back excessively.

 

[Phil]

Is this a savage????

I only ask because i think you can adjust the head space, i agree with Joe, i think it`s a head space issue.

There should be resistance when closing the bolt on your rifle to form correctly.

Phil.

 

[bobcat93]

When fire forming I loose about 3 per 100 cases. Yes it is a bolt action. And by fare the most accurate rife I own. Im not going to change a thing.. I can live with loosing a case from time to time
I guess curiosity brought about the question, then I wondered it lapua brass would be a little more flexible, and give me more case capacity. But I think trying it is the only way to tell
Also the case is nice and shiny, it was the camera shot that makes it look all dark..

 

[Carolina Man]

That is probably not a good idea. You have some headspace problems, either the gun or your loading technique. Need to get it figured out before you hurt yourself or someone else.

Just my thoughts.

George


Im not going to change a thing.. I can live with loosing a case from time to time

 

[CatShooter]

You definitely have a headspace problem... whether your chamber is too long, or you are FL sizing (you didn't say) with a FL die that is too short, you need to deal with it.

You should be able to get 30+ reloads from a case, and Lake City brass is excellent.

First, when you close the bolt on a new, unformed case, (empty), is there a fair amount of resistance in closing the bolt - if there is little or no resistance, then your chamber is too long.

If this is the problem, then oil the cases on the first firing... this will keep the case from stretching, and allow it to fully form.

If the chamber is not too long, then are you FL sizing... if yes, then you are setting the shoulder back and defeating the whole reason for the AI case. Adjust your dies to not touch the shoulders until you have fired them a few times - if they reach the point of being hard to close the bolt on, then start turning the FL down a tiny bit (~1/72nd of a turn) at a time until the bolt has a slight bit of resistance to closing... your cases will last forever and not separate.

You should NOT live with this problem.

 

[22DASHER]

Even if this rifle is a record setting rifle, I wouldn't be shooting it until I have a gunsmith look at it.

A couple questions, was this brass fired in any other gun before yours? How far are you bumping the shoulder? Do you have access to a nogo gauge?

 

[MrMajestic]

How accurate will it be without your dominant eye? Just fix it! My hunch is someone ran an Ackley reamer in it without setting the barrel back, once again just a hunch.

 

[bobcat93]

This was once fired lake city brass from Graff and sons. I full length sized it. I seat bullets long when fire forming. So its hard to feel resistance when chambering a round.
What is the idea behind oiling a round.. Does the oil just let the case fully expand quickly.
After fire forming I neck size only with redding competition bushing dies.

 

[Gabe22BR]

I got some of that from them to make 221 fireball brass into. Had the same happen when I shot it one time........ Now I use that "once fired" brass as gravel. ;D

 

[bobcat93]

I got some of that from them to make 221 fireball brass into. Had the same happen when I shot it one time........ Now I use that "once fired" brass as gravel. ;D

When you switched brass was the problem solved? What brass do you now use?

 

[SmokinJoe]

Since more than one person has had the same experience with the same brass from Graf's, a big part of this problem lies with the original use of the military brass, maybe machinegun brass? Apparently whatever it was fired in had excess headspace & permanently damaged the brass. Both of you should contact Graf's & tell them your experience

Regarding your question about lubing the cases before fireforming, that is just a trick to prevent the cases from adhering to the chamber walls from firing pressure & allows the case to slip back against the boltface & do all the expanding up front where you want it. Make sense?

 

[Gabe22BR]

Lapua.........since they came out with 221 fireball, I got 1000 new. No more problems.

 

[bobcat93]

Since more than one person has had the same experience with the same brass from Graf's, a big part of this problem lies with the original use of the military brass, maybe machinegun brass? Apparently whatever it was fired in had excess headspace & permanently damaged the brass. Both of you should contact Graf's & tell them your experience

Regarding your question about lubing the cases before fireforming, that is just a trick to prevent the cases from adhering to the chamber walls from firing pressure & allows the case to slip back against the boltface & do all the expanding up front where you want it. Make sense?

Yes sir. Crystal clear..what do you use ..size wax? Gun oil?..

 

[CatShooter]

Since more than one person has had the same experience with the same brass from Graf's, a big part of this problem lies with the original use of the military brass, maybe machinegun brass? Apparently whatever it was fired in had excess headspace & permanently damaged the brass. Both of you should contact Graf's & tell them your experience

Regarding your question about lubing the cases before fireforming, that is just a trick to prevent the cases from adhering to the chamber walls from firing pressure & allows the case to slip back against the boltface & do all the expanding up front where you want it. Make sense?

Yes sir. Crystal clear..what do you use ..size wax? Gun oil?..

Don't use sizing lube - it is too thick and will not let the cases slide back - use a light gun oil (I use G-96), or Rem oil, or kerosene.

Put it on a cloth ink pad like the Lyman, (not the RCBS, it is rubber foam), and roll the loaded round on the pad before loading the rifle.

It is not a "trick", it is a method of keeping cases from stretching on the first firing.

 

[bobcat93]

Catshooter,
thank you for the reply. I am going to buy some different brass and try your method.
I will post results after range trip.

 

['Freak]

Do not lube your new, never been fired before brass, unless maybe you know for sure that your chamber reeks of an excessive amount of headspace.

The lubed case body stuff would only be done if folk have need for the stretching of the case body to be spread out over most of its length instead of limited to stretching mostly just forward of the web. The forward end of the case body will normally have enough grip on the chamber wall that it can’t slip to do much if any of the stretching, that is unless the case body and/or chamber wall is oily so then the brass can’t get a decent hold on the chamber wall.

 

[CatShooter]

Do not lube your new, never been fired before brass, unless maybe you know for sure that your chamber reeks of an excessive amount of headspace.

The lubed case body stuff would only be done if folk have need for the stretching of the case body to be spread out over most of its length instead of limited to stretching mostly just forward of the web. The forward end of the case body will normally have enough grip on the chamber wall that it can’t slip to do much if any of the stretching, that is unless the case body and/or chamber wall is oily so then the brass can’t get a decent hold on the chamber wall.

You are wrong. If the full case is lubed, the body cannot grab the walls. When fired, it slips back and fills the chamber, without any stretching.

It does what jamming the bullet is supposed to do (but most often, doesn't).

 

[SmokinJoe]

Since headspace is being discussed, thought I would remind everyone reading this that there is a link to a Brownell's video on the homepage that discusses headspace.

 

[bobcat93]

So what is it guys lube cases or not..lol..
To it seems the oil will keep the case from griping the chamber walls, thus allowing it to completely fill the chamber evenly with out any stretching. Or creating a thin spot in the case .. I'm going to get some different brass and try it..since another member had the same problem with the same brass I have, and it stopped when he changed brass..