Looking for some info and feedback from F,T/R) shooters using the 223. There is no shortage of 308 shooters but I don't see much on 223. Ballistics look almost the same all the way out to 1000yds.
Jerry
Jerry
223 for F Class Competition - Your Thoughts
- Thread starter mysticplayer
- Start date
Was reviewing the F,T/R) rules on DCRA site and noticed that Canada limits bullets in 223 to 81gr and in 308 to 156gr.
However, no such limits exist for US shooters. Is this correct?
Jerry
However, no such limits exist for US shooters. Is this correct?
Jerry
Here is that link
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/fullbore_05.pdf
Of course this is Intl fullbore & not the Long Range F-Class You can run just about anything there.
There is a diffrence between the two. Rules are on the NRA web site.
F-Class provisional Rules: http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_fb_prone_06.pdf
RussT
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/fullbore_05.pdf
Of course this is Intl fullbore & not the Long Range F-Class You can run just about anything there.
There is a diffrence between the two. Rules are on the NRA web site.
F-Class provisional Rules: http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_fb_prone_06.pdf
RussT
Those were the rules I have looked over and there is no mention on max bullet weights for either 223/308.
This agrees with the many currents posts on F class sites comparing the 175gr and heavy 90gr 22 cal bullets. I sure hope for '07, this rules comes out nice and clear or else there is going to be alot of unhappy shooters.
I think the 156gr/308 and 81gr/223 is a great rule. Bullet tech and case capacity will quickly limit the performance. This will level the playing field as it comes to ballistics.
There will be little ballistics advantage between competitors. That will be left to the F,O) shooters.
Jerry
This agrees with the many currents posts on F class sites comparing the 175gr and heavy 90gr 22 cal bullets. I sure hope for '07, this rules comes out nice and clear or else there is going to be alot of unhappy shooters.
I think the 156gr/308 and 81gr/223 is a great rule. Bullet tech and case capacity will quickly limit the performance. This will level the playing field as it comes to ballistics.
There will be little ballistics advantage between competitors. That will be left to the F,O) shooters.
Jerry
Forum Boss
Administrator
You guys should also note U.S. NRA Provisional Rule 3.4,a),2):
The width of the rifle’s forend shall not exceed 76mm,approximately 3 inches).
I'm told there's no such rule on the book in Canada. Can any of our Canadian friends verify that??
The width of the rifle’s forend shall not exceed 76mm,approximately 3 inches).
I'm told there's no such rule on the book in Canada. Can any of our Canadian friends verify that??
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Jerry,
I've been looking into setting up either one of my AR's or another gun in .223 Rem. for my wife and kids to shoot F-Class... mostly @ 600yds as thats what we have here at the local range. I don't expect them to travel to matches much, but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised on that account.
At any rate... the .223 Rem w/ 80gr bullets became legal for Palma a few years back. A number of people attempted it; the benefits were supposed to be reduced recoil,therefore less shooter fatigue and better shoooter performance), economy of components, and easier/cheaper to transport ammo to distant matches,where shooters may be forced to fly and ship their ammo). The numbers the computers spit out would indicate that an 80gr .224 cal bullet pushed at a sufficient speed should fly in the wind comparable to a 155gr .308 cal bullet at the nominal speed of ~2950fps +/-.
More recently... about the only people I hear of using a .223 Rem at real long range,800/900/1000yds) are those brave,masochistic?) souls shooting AR-15 Service Rifles at 1k. The anecdotal evidence I've heard,and seen) is that while the 'puter may say a lighter bullet w/ a good BC might keep up... when the wind really comes out to play, the bigger heavier bullet is gonna be less susceptible to the gusts and whatnot. Even in the LR BR world, the little bit I've picked up from watching there is that while the smaller diameter bullets may shoot like a house afire in calm conditions, when things get nast, the big .30's start ruling the roost.
If things work out this year, I may have a .223 bolt gun w/ a 1-8" twist, as well as my .308 bolt guns,1-11, 1-13" twists). Might have to do some 'theory to practice' tests.
YMMV,
Monte
I've been looking into setting up either one of my AR's or another gun in .223 Rem. for my wife and kids to shoot F-Class... mostly @ 600yds as thats what we have here at the local range. I don't expect them to travel to matches much, but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised on that account.
At any rate... the .223 Rem w/ 80gr bullets became legal for Palma a few years back. A number of people attempted it; the benefits were supposed to be reduced recoil,therefore less shooter fatigue and better shoooter performance), economy of components, and easier/cheaper to transport ammo to distant matches,where shooters may be forced to fly and ship their ammo). The numbers the computers spit out would indicate that an 80gr .224 cal bullet pushed at a sufficient speed should fly in the wind comparable to a 155gr .308 cal bullet at the nominal speed of ~2950fps +/-.
More recently... about the only people I hear of using a .223 Rem at real long range,800/900/1000yds) are those brave,masochistic?) souls shooting AR-15 Service Rifles at 1k. The anecdotal evidence I've heard,and seen) is that while the 'puter may say a lighter bullet w/ a good BC might keep up... when the wind really comes out to play, the bigger heavier bullet is gonna be less susceptible to the gusts and whatnot. Even in the LR BR world, the little bit I've picked up from watching there is that while the smaller diameter bullets may shoot like a house afire in calm conditions, when things get nast, the big .30's start ruling the roost.
If things work out this year, I may have a .223 bolt gun w/ a 1-8" twist, as well as my .308 bolt guns,1-11, 1-13" twists). Might have to do some 'theory to practice' tests.
YMMV,
Monte
www.dcra.ca. Click on the rules button and all in one spot.
You are right, there are no limitations on stock dimensions in the Canadian rules. However, given the use of 76mm in the US rules, some Euro or Commenwealth county must be implementing this. So Canada will likely follow. No new rules on this yet.
Definitely there is no rule from anyone on the width of the buttstock
.
On the 223 VS 308 wind drift issue, I think there will be more parity even in the real world as new bullets come out in 22cal.
Up until now, the main market has been service rifles with stubby bullets the norm. Berger, Hornady, JLK are pushing forward with some very nice 80gr. I am sure Sierra and Lapua will follow suit.
There is little reason why 0.46 to 0.49 type 22 cal bullets can't be made if the market is there. Velocity in the 223 are also likely to move up. Almost all development has been for the AR and shorter barrel tactical/varmint rifles.
I see some post where shooters are pushing 75gr Amax to 3150fps accurately in 30" bolt rifles. Now we are getting to a more level playing field with the 308. Maybe even surpassing.
155gr at 2950/3000fps is already 'BR' toasty in a 308 and there will be little room to increase performance. Personally, I have never gotten over 2850fps accurately. Most posts on F class 308 shooters talk about using 175g MK or 178gr Amax at elevated velocities. That will soon change.
There is little doubt the 223 will come to equal if not dominate the F,T/R) class. With its reduced recoil and costs, what better way to attract new shooters and those recoil shy.
Burning 1/2 the powder per bang will also show benefits in the heat of summer and these long relays.
Jerry
You are right, there are no limitations on stock dimensions in the Canadian rules. However, given the use of 76mm in the US rules, some Euro or Commenwealth county must be implementing this. So Canada will likely follow. No new rules on this yet.
Definitely there is no rule from anyone on the width of the buttstock
.On the 223 VS 308 wind drift issue, I think there will be more parity even in the real world as new bullets come out in 22cal.
Up until now, the main market has been service rifles with stubby bullets the norm. Berger, Hornady, JLK are pushing forward with some very nice 80gr. I am sure Sierra and Lapua will follow suit.
There is little reason why 0.46 to 0.49 type 22 cal bullets can't be made if the market is there. Velocity in the 223 are also likely to move up. Almost all development has been for the AR and shorter barrel tactical/varmint rifles.
I see some post where shooters are pushing 75gr Amax to 3150fps accurately in 30" bolt rifles. Now we are getting to a more level playing field with the 308. Maybe even surpassing.
155gr at 2950/3000fps is already 'BR' toasty in a 308 and there will be little room to increase performance. Personally, I have never gotten over 2850fps accurately. Most posts on F class 308 shooters talk about using 175g MK or 178gr Amax at elevated velocities. That will soon change.
There is little doubt the 223 will come to equal if not dominate the F,T/R) class. With its reduced recoil and costs, what better way to attract new shooters and those recoil shy.
Burning 1/2 the powder per bang will also show benefits in the heat of summer and these long relays.
Jerry
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Jerry,
80gr Bergers & JLK's have been have been around for years. The 80gr SMK is widely rumored to be under-rated as far as factory BC numbers as compared to actual. The people who have told me that the computer numbers didn't match real world performance *were* ones shooting the high BC VLD's from 30" tubes. Maybe different combinations of bullets and powders will net some improvements. Maybe not. Me, I'm not counting on it displacing anything at 1k, not even a .308, for a while yet. 600yds, maybe.
YMMV,
Monte
80gr Bergers & JLK's have been have been around for years. The 80gr SMK is widely rumored to be under-rated as far as factory BC numbers as compared to actual. The people who have told me that the computer numbers didn't match real world performance *were* ones shooting the high BC VLD's from 30" tubes. Maybe different combinations of bullets and powders will net some improvements. Maybe not. Me, I'm not counting on it displacing anything at 1k, not even a .308, for a while yet. 600yds, maybe.
YMMV,
Monte
Monte, thanks for the info. I know that a 308 is unlikely to be in my cards given my shoulder so will keep researching the 223.
Asked the same question on a couple of other forums with some fore and some against the 223. Was a pretty even split, as I would expect.
Interestingly, I got more positive responses from shooters Down Under then in the US.
Will see if the piggy bank has any extra cash after the holidays to play. Please let us know how your rifles turn out.
Jerry
Asked the same question on a couple of other forums with some fore and some against the 223. Was a pretty even split, as I would expect.
Interestingly, I got more positive responses from shooters Down Under then in the US.
Will see if the piggy bank has any extra cash after the holidays to play. Please let us know how your rifles turn out.
Jerry
Monte
You mentioned in your post that a few years back 223 was allowed for Palma. Im not sure when that happened but Huray.... I always wanted to be able to shoot my space gun for something beside across the course. I wish I would have stayed for the Palma Match at Camp Perry now. But since I have no 308 in a suitable prone configuration I did not stay.
ASA is this true? Im slipping I guess.
Russ
You mentioned in your post that a few years back 223 was allowed for Palma. Im not sure when that happened but Huray.... I always wanted to be able to shoot my space gun for something beside across the course. I wish I would have stayed for the Palma Match at Camp Perry now. But since I have no 308 in a suitable prone configuration I did not stay.
ASA is this true? Im slipping I guess.
Russ
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Russ,
I may be wrong. I would have sworn that it was legal for Palma in a bolt gun, but so far all I'm finding is the rules is .308 Win bolt gun, and of course in the U.S., any .308/.223 Service Rifle. It looks like the .223 might be better tied to 'Fullbore' than 'Palma'. Might take me a while to hunt this one down. Wouldn't be the first time I mis-spoke
Monte
I may be wrong. I would have sworn that it was legal for Palma in a bolt gun, but so far all I'm finding is the rules is .308 Win bolt gun, and of course in the U.S., any .308/.223 Service Rifle. It looks like the .223 might be better tied to 'Fullbore' than 'Palma'. Might take me a while to hunt this one down. Wouldn't be the first time I mis-spoke
Monte
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.