.223 flyers

[Glenn Powell]

I seat bullets with a redding comp seater. I will have to order the lee and body dies. As to canting the rifle I have a level on the scope, which I squared up with the flats on the action. As to follow through, I am pretty sure I have that whooped, flintlocks have been by far the best training aid in that aspect of shooting. As to hold, I have truer free recoil, light hold, and what I call magnum hold, and this rifle seems to like really being held down. Strong hold in the shoulder, just like I do with my big boys. And when I do everything right I can see the atmospheric distortion as the bullet leaves the barrel. I am not sure about finger positioning on the trigger, but guess I need to work on that. I will give the for end hold a try.

 

[BoydAllen]

What kind of Fl die have you been using?

 

[Glenn Powell]

Standard RCBS, with the expander ball working at the top of the dye, separate step to d-prime.

 

[delmartin]

These cases have only been fired 4 times, I typically annneal after 5, when I go through a 500 count box of bullets. I typically load 100 at a time and spent all day at he range shooting. The rifle seems to group best when pretty hot, but I don't put more than 10 down range at a time, I am not ready to burn up this barrel just yet. I have put well over 4000 rounds through it, and it was used when I got it. Thanks for the suggestions, I will sit down this weekend and anneal, weigh, sort, and go cross-eyed checking runout.

You are receiving a lot of great help here and there is not much more I could add except you say the barrel has "well over 4000 rounds through it."
When I get a barrel that is shot out it starts to throw flyers just like you describe.
I would like to see Mr Allen or others comment on this. Might this be the problem?

 

[Glenn Powell]

I would agree if it were a fast 7 twist and shooting the long .22 bullets. I have only shot 52-55 grain bullets through this rig, and no where near hot loads, or let my barrel heat up too much, I am anal in that aspect. Its my understanding that slow twists and light bullets at modest velocity give outstanding barrel life. When it starts throwing all the bullets then I will have the barrel replaced and action bedded, no smith in town or withen 500 miles. But it would be nice to look down the tube with a bore scope, just can't part with the cash right now, I have a stock to buy for a real precision rifle. ;D

 

[BoydAllen]

When was the last time that you measured the point at which your bullets touch? IMO, no matter what the twist or loads, with 4,000 rounds down the tube, it is likely that your barrel is gettin' a mite tired

 

[Glenn Powell]

Delmartin, I like my crow with salt, pepper, garlic, and cooked in butter. Thank you for being persistent! My records, (piss poor at best, this is one of my first rifles to load for), show .003 throat erosion, and I don't know how many rounds between measurements. What a learning experience this has been! I even ordered the lee and body dies just this morning, and a few different boxes of bullets. I have enjoyed the process of elimination, and myth busting. You guys are by far the best source of info any where. Any one know a good smith that is good with Sako's?

 

[WI3Der]

I have a CZ Varmint 1:9 that does exactly what your describing with 52-55gr bullets. After doing a little research, I tried some 40gr nosler BT's and the gun groups very well. It also shoots the 50gr bullets well. As in my case, it might not be the bullets your looking to shoot but may give you the groups your looking for.

 

[ReedG]

My "guru" says the first sign of a shot-out barrel is unexplained flyers. Especially when all the loading and bedding details have been tended to. Not sure of your cleaning regimen, but even with coated bullets 4,000 rounds is right up there for a .22 caliber bore.

 

[Tozguy]

Well... lots of good possibilities have been mentioned. I'd like to suggest the following.

[1] Get the chrono problem fixed so you can at least determione if there is a likely problem with load consistency. I know you seem to be sure it's not that, but the prrof is in the actual data and until you can "see" what's happening on the ES/SD of the group, you cannot rule that out. I'd suggest that this is a very important data point if you really want to solve your mystery.

[2] Assuming you can verify the loads as NOT being the issue, take yourself out of the equation by having the group shot from a really high quality rest setup. You don't have to own such a setup (but it helps obviously) - just ask around and see if you can't find someone with the rig and who'd be willing to help you find out. In my opinion, the shooter is almost always the reason for a "flyer".

[3] Assuming you rule out the "nut behind the bolt" ;o) now focus on the rifle. Look for points of stress which might not show up until the heat build-up rears it's ugly head. For Savages, this seems to frequently be at the rear tang (where the safety is located), others may be predominately in the reciever/action area. Also look carefully at the trigger mechanism. Also look carefully at the bore - is it copper fouled?

[4] If all that fails to find the culprit, you are probably experiencing accuracy drift from wind conditions. Look at adding flags and uping your game by learning to read the wind and conditions.


Good luck....

Jim

 

[flur60]

I had this same problem with a flyer or two in almost ever 223 group. I was using LC brass; cleaned, wieghed and sorted. Carefully measured every powder charge. Checked runout and sorted my rounds to get 5 reloads with the least amount of runout. And still I had the flyers.

Here's something you can try that's quick and easy and worked for me (my BR buddy's suggestion). When you get a flyer cull out that brass. Or better yet, sort your brass as you shoot and group it by where the bullet hit the target. Keep these groups of brass for your next loading session. I now have (3) sets of 5 cases that I can depend on to perform very similar. Most of time this hand sorted brass delivers at the range. When it doesn't I normally know what I did wrong.

Hope this helps.

 

[wapiti25]

You might try a diferent bullet such as a non-production type not made on mass produced presses. Berger is semi-production as I understand it, Bart's can be good.

 

[lonehunter]

1/ a bad crown
2/ wrong powder or powder charge
3/ needs to be rebeded
All of these or any one of the three will cause fliers.
Hope this helps!!!!!!!!!

 

[fdshuster]

Glenn: I second what Beau said, "4,000 rounds is getting up there". I did get 4500 rounds out of one of my 223 custom barrels (Hart), but by then it was toast, and yes, the first signs that is was going South were the beginning of uncalled wild shots.

I also noticed heavier copper fouling and a loss of 200 to 250 fps with the same loads fired when new.

If you borescoped it you will see some serious firecracking in the throat at 4000 rounds fired.

As it progresses downhill expect to see more & more wild shots, and eventually, keyholing.

An added note: The barrel that lasted 4500 rounds had a steady diet of 55 gr. V-Max's with 25 grs. of H335, not a maximum load by any means. Heavyweight ( 70+) bullets with "healthy" powder charges can be expected to deliver well less than 4500 of usable, accurate life.

 

[jhelmuth]

I had this same problem with a flyer or two in almost ever 223 group. I was using LC brass; cleaned, wieghed and sorted. Carefully measured every powder charge. Checked runout and sorted my rounds to get 5 reloads with the least amount of runout. And still I had the flyers.

Here's something you can try that's quick and easy and worked for me (my BR buddy's suggestion). When you get a flyer cull out that brass. Or better yet, sort your brass as you shoot and group it by where the bullet hit the target. Keep these groups of brass for your next loading session. I now have (3) sets of 5 cases that I can depend on to perform very similar. Most of time this hand sorted brass delivers at the range. When it doesn't I normally know what I did wrong.

Hope this helps.

Great tip!