223 dies - neck tension question

[Jerry Snyder]

I load 223/556 for my AR style rifles. I use a Redding FL sizing die, no bushing. I have recently come into a newly rebarreled Rem 700 in 223. Do you think I should purchase a FL sizing die which utilizes neck bushings, or keep on using the non bushing set of dies I currently have and use? Rifle will be used to shoot 100 yards at most, range fun gun. New barrel is a 26 inch Krieger.

Thanks

 

[Bill Norris]

I would try the die you have to see how the rifle groups. If it's not satisfactory then maybe get the bushing die if you want to control neck tension.

 

[243Lapua]

I got the Redding FL bushing die and didn't look back. I got my 700 with a 1-7.5 twist Bartlein using 77 Sierra Match, Lapua Brass, H4895, Fed 205m primer. Very accurate. And I think I have a .245 bushing.

 

[markm87]

I load all my .223 ammo (bolt gun and ARs) the same way. Nothing special needed for a bolt gun. If you're AR ammo shoots well, no point in making things complicated for the bolt gun.

 

[dusterdave173]

I have had Excellent results with my 223 Redding FL die even using the expander ball it came with--for 100 yd as you state I would say Keep it Simple--Bullet selection etc will matter more at 100 than neck bushing in my limited experience--I too am experimenting with mandrels and bushing die but for 100 yd I would just find the bullet that the barrel loves I bet that makes more diff than going bushing
That being said I have a mint new Wilson neck die with 245 and 247 bushings in the classified section

 

[DiRTY DOG]

Rebarreled with a custom? Or factory?

You may want a seperate FL sizer to set the shoulder bump tighter than your Ar for your 700 chamber. No need for a bushing die, just buy a Forster FL die and have them hone it to your liking. Then use a 21st Century sizing arbor.

 

[243winxb]

Redding FL sizing die

Military bullet pull is 35 pounds, minimum. This is about .002" Neck tension.
Keep brass separate between gun.

Is the die over working the necks? Sizing down more then needed? Size a case without the expander & measure.

Some brands of brass make it almost impossible to pull the expander thru a lubed neck. Here outside neck turning fixes it for me, using standard RCBS fl die.

I like Redding type S fl bushing dies in my 243Win & 6.5 CM

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

That die will be just fine for AR and bolt fun guns. Size and load away, a simple ammo checker will make sure the ammo can run thru both.

 

[Jerry Snyder]

Rebarreled with a custom? Or factory?

You may want a seperate FL sizer to set the shoulder bump tighter than your Ar for your 700 chamber. No need for a bushing die, just buy a Forster FL die and have them hone it to your liking. Then use a 21st Century sizing arbor.

Krieger barrel, 26 inch

 

[Zero333]

I use a 223rem RCBS FL sizing die set ( P/N # 11101 ) with the expander ball for my R-700. Works great.
I use it single stage and on my Dillon XL-650 when loading for semi-auto duty.

 

[mikecr]

I vote bushing die for a bolt gun.

 

[Ned Ludd]

A bushing die is one approach to allow for adjustment of neck tension (interference fit). A bushing die may not be of any advantage at all if the neck tension and precision you obtain with your current die is acceptable. I typically use from approximately .002" to .0025" neck tension with precision bolt rifle loads. I suspect if your non-bushing die already delivers neck tension somewhere within the range of perhaps .0015" to .003" it should work just fine. On the other hand, if your neck tension falls outside that range and/or the precision you are currently getting isn't everything you want, it's probably not going to hurt anything (other than the $$$ cost) to get the bushing die. I would weight the cost of a new die and the possibility that it wouldn't be that much improvement against how your current die is already working as part of the decision-making process.

 

[K22]

I shoot 10 different 223 Rem bolt rifles. I am primarily a varmint / predator hunter and recreational range shooter. My goal / standard is 1/2 to 5/8" moa. for my varmint rifles.

Before I get into dies, I believe you will achieve the best results by starting with virgin cases and dedicate them to a specific rifle. Rotate their firing and sizing.

I have been using standard RCBS FL dies for over 50 years with excellent results for my needs. I have nothing bad to say about bushing dies because I have never used them. I like to keep things simple, uncomplicated, and cheap IF I can produce the results I need.

Regarding the issue of neck tension, standard FL dies do tend to oversize the neck. When a standard expander ball is pulled through the neck, it usually over works the neck and creates undesirable drag on the neck that can stretch the neck.

A simple solution is to polish the expander ball with very fine emery cloth. In addition, I have gone one step further. I have four expander assemblies, color coded, sized in .001" increments. Depending on the rifle / brand of case / age of the case I merely substitute the appropriate expander assembly to give me the minimum amount of drag but still uniform the neck.

I do not load to a specific neck tension. I am more focused on a consistent neck tension, which for me, produces the results I desire on target.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I shoot 10 different 223 Rem bolt rifles. I am primarily a varmint / predator hunter and recreational range shooter. My goal / standard is 1/2 to 5/8" moa. for my varmint rifles.

Before I get into dies, I believe you will achieve the best results by starting with virgin cases and dedicate them to a specific rifle. Rotate their firing and sizing.

I have been using standard RCBS FL dies for over 50 years with excellent results for my needs. I have nothing bad to say about bushing dies because I have never used them. I like to keep things simple, uncomplicated, and cheap IF I can produce the results I need.

Regarding the issue of neck tension, standard FL dies do tend to oversize the neck. When a standard expander ball is pulled through the neck, it usually over works the neck and creates undesirable drag on the neck that can stretch the neck.

A simple solution is to polish the expander ball with very fine emery cloth. In addition, I have gone one step further. I have four expander assemblies, color coded, sized in .001" increments. Depending on the rifle / brand of case / age of the case I merely substitute the appropriate expander assembly to give me the minimum amount of drag but still uniform the neck.

I do not load to a specific neck tension. I am more focused on a consistent neck tension, which for me, produces the results I desire on target.

Great reply

 

[Zero333]

The part about the neck overworking when using the RCBS FL die set is simple to remedy. Some brass like Winchester can take quite a bit of overworking compared to other top dollar brass brands. But nothing that annealing every 5 or so reloads can't fix.

I have a set of 300 pieces of Winchester 308win brass that's on it's 31st cycle. I have 50 pieces left to shoot before I start another cycle with the same 300 pieces. It's being fired in the 2nd barrel of the same rifle and once It's on it's 33 reloading cycle I'm gonna retire this barrel ( about 5,000 to 5,5000 rounds in each barrel ).

I have 200 pieces of Lapua 308win brass that only lasted 5 reloads before primer pockets expanded and brass was hard to extract no matter what the pressure level of the loads. First 4 reload cycles were at the same velocities as the Winchester brass, so I assume the pressures were fairly high, but the Winchester brass takes it like a champ.

Accuracy with the Winchester and Lapua brass was exactly the same. And the same thing applies with my 243win rifles and 7mm-08 hunting rifle which I have Lapua and Winchester brass for both.

 

[Timon]

If, I picked up a 700, in 223, that I intended to use for fun at the range and already had a FL non bushing die, I would just load rounds, with that die and then go shoot it.

This stuff can be a huge “rabbit hole”. The more you buy, the more you’ll have to buy after that purchase. Just load it and go have fun.

If it does not perform for you, the way you want, then come back to the forum and discuss your options. There are an endless number of people on here that would love to help you out in any way.

 

[K22]

If, I picked up a 700, in 223, that I intended to use for fun at the range and already had a FL non bushing die, I would just load rounds, with that die and then go shoot it.

This stuff is a huge “rabbit hole”. The more you buy, the more you’ll have to buy after that purchase. Just load it and go have fun.

If it does not perform for you, the way you want, then come back to the forum and discuss your options. There are an endless number of people on here that would love to help you out in any way.

You will be amazed at the level of accuracy you can achieve with standard dies, a high-quality rifle and scope, a tuned tailored reload, and a shooter with reasonable skills. It doesn't have to a mystical or elaborate process.

 

[barefooter56]

I load 223/556 for my AR style rifles. I use a Redding FL sizing die, no bushing. I have recently come into a newly rebarreled Rem 700 in 223. Do you think I should purchase a FL sizing die which utilizes neck bushings, or keep on using the non bushing set of dies I currently have and use? Rifle will be used to shoot 100 yards at most, range fun gun. New barrel is a 26 inch Krieger.

Thanks

Jerry,
Either the standard or S TYPE dies will work. HOWEVER, I do suggest that you get a die set and set it up for THAT RIFLE. I know it may be expensive. But the aggravation it saves having to constantly adjusting dies between your AR and the bolt gun is priceless. Just my opinion.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I use bushing dies to reduce the over sizing solid dies do. To control neck tension, get a set of mandrels from 21sr Century. Annealing helps with consistency. Good chamfers on id and od plus a consistent trim are also important. This is for a bolt gun or single loading an AR.

 

[Rickhem]

A couple decades ago, I got a set of RCBS Competition dies in .223. I was loading for Service Rifle, and took in all the info I could. I bent up a primer pin when trying to resize some military brass, and RCBS sent me a couple more, but this led to a little tip about neck tension. One of the pieces of advice I got, not really sure who I got it from, was that you almost couldn't have too much neck tension. I was told to just take the expander off that decapping shaft and not worry about expanding. The thought is that first, the dies are very precisely machined for concentricity, and that spindly threaded rod for the decapping pin really isn't, so don't risk a slightly bent or canted rod induce an inconsistency to the case neck when pulling an expanding ball back through the case at what may not be a straight line. And secondly, higher neck tension will help with getting the case pressure higher before letting the bullet go. Both made sense to me.
Some suggested that leaving the decapping rod loose in the die, would allow it to self-align when pulling the case down around it when resizing, but it's a threaded rod and threads are not perpendicular to the direction of force. The only negative to this is when seating flat based bullets. Any boattail will slip right in, but some flat based bullets aren't as cooperative.
Anyway, I've removed the expander balls from my dies whenever possible and have no issues.