223 conflicting load data

[PD Gohil]

First reloads for my 16" AR. Lapua match brass, .003 neck tension 205 primer. AR Comp powder. Barnes TSX 70gr. Seated to mag length

Trying to find an accurate max load.
Barnes : 20.9
Hornady manual : 21.5
Alliant: 23.4

Sure I know start low and work your way up looking for signs of pressure. But that's a pretty big difference in max loads between three different reputable sources. Also when I start my ladder test tomorrow I don't want to be wasting ammo too low or too high just searching for pressure.

Thanks.
PGohil
WV

 

[watercam]

The Barnes TSX bullets like a lot of jump. Like .065" of jump more or less. Also, the TSX bullets are pure copper (more or less) and offer a bit more drag in the barrel than gilded metal jackets so velocity will be a tad lower. Not your Grand Dad's .223 bullet!

 

[PD Gohil]

The Barnes TSX bullets like a lot of jump. Like .065" of jump more or less. Also, the TSX bullets are pure copper (more or less) and offer a bit more drag in the barrel than gilded metal jackets so velocity will be a tad lower. Not your Grand Dad's .223 bullet!

I appreciate the information. And I will definitely keep it in mind. But it doesn't answer my question for a max load using AR comp and this bullet and why I'm finding such a discrepancy amongst manuals.

 

[dfrosch]

The Hornady and Alliant loads are not for the TSX.

Look here: https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

If you scroll down, you'll see Sierra loads for both bolt guns and ARs. The AR loads are probably just a little lower than the bolt loads.

Different barrels have different max loads. Start low, work up and watch your brass as you go, particularly the case head. Marks from the ejector hole are a sign that you have loaded too hot.

 

[Hohn]

I appreciate the information. And I will definitely keep it in mind. But it doesn't answer my question for a max load using AR comp and this bullet and why I'm finding such a discrepancy amongst manuals.

The max load is whatever your rifle tolerates without tearing up brass. I’d start around 20gr and no lower if this is an AR with a Wylde or nato chamber.

I can run 23gr of ar comp under an 80gr ELD in my nato chamber.

 

[RegionRat]

No way I can think of to get you out of the hot end of a search unless you can load at the range. (That is a really long bullet so make sure your bbl twist is happy with it for stability factor.)

I take part of the ladder loads loaded at home, and then have prepped brass in the kit with my reloading gear. I can decide on the spot if the next hotter step is worth the risk or to stop if they look wrong. It saves trips to the range and/or disassembling ammo that was loaded and too hot to shoot. Doing this type of testing by loading part of the work at the range is a real time saver.

Also, have that bbl good and cleaned up before you start with Barnes copper loads, things act funny in some bbls when you switch back and forth to regular jackets and copper solids.

What twist is your bbl?

 

[dolek]

Barnes should know what they are talking about , they made the bullet .

 

[thatguyshm]

I would start in the high 19s and go from there. 16 inch barrel, probably try for around 2650 to 2700 and see what groups best. I use 23gr with the 70gr Nosler RDFs, 20in Rem700, getting 2850. The standard Barnes bullet will hit speed faster due to the increased pressure from bullet design.

If you want to save bullets, load up one round at each charge you want to test, I usually will do either 0.5 or 0.3gr steps, and go from there. I wouldn't go much over barnes data due to the lugs of an AR not being as strong as a bolt gun. Don't go much over 55k or you'll run the risk of breaking a lug on your bolt in short order .

Be careful and have fun.

 

[Kurz]

Sure I know start low and work your way up looking for signs of pressure. But that's a pretty big difference in max loads between three different reputable sources. Also when I start my ladder test tomorrow I don't want to be wasting ammo too low or too high just searching for pressure.

The load data from your listed sources is only good for one source, Barnes. No other loads are specified for solid copper bullets so the data from the other two is useless.

Without absolute seating data and load data, testing is fact of life. Experience can be a huge help but when you're starting from scratch, you have to use the process to determine the proper parameters. Find the lands and work backwards seating the bullet deeper in steps. I will admit that I've never used Barnes bullets in an AR platform and I don't have any interest in trying it now. So I can't offer any shortcuts at all except for the basic rules regarding solids and seating depth.

The Barnes TSX bullets like a lot of jump. Like .065" of jump more or less.

This means that even when you start with a low pressure load, chances are you will be testing for seating the bullet deeper into the case which raises pressure. From their manual:

1. Where do I seat the TSX, Tipped TSX and LRX bullets?


When loading a Barnes TSX, Tipped TSX or LRX bullet, your rifle may prefer a bullet jump of anywhere between (a minimum of) .050” up to .250” or more. This distance off the lands (rifling), aka "jump" may be limited to the rifles throat length, magazine length and bullet length.

When selecting the cartridge overall length (COAL) we recommend starting with a minimum “jump” of .050” off of the lands. You can test different seating depths and find a “sweet spot” that your particular firearm prefers. We suggest working in at least .025” increments as follows seating the bullet deeper to allow a further jump. Your test plan could look something like this:

1st group- .050” jump
2nd group- .075” jump
3rd group- .100” jump
4th group- .125” jump
5th group- .150“ jump
6th group- * see below

This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” or other methods. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the cannelure rings. Remember there are many factors that may control or limit the seating depth for your application. You may find that you need to start at around 0.150” off the lands and are not able to get any closer due to limiting factors including proper neck tension and magazine length.

*In rifles that have long throats you may be limited on how close you are able to get the bullet to the lands. In these instances, it is not uncommon to find the best accuracy with a jump of .200” or more.

This jump may possibly stay the same regardless of powder or charge weight within a given rifle. If preferred accuracy is not obtained, we certainly recommend trying another powder, for the powder type and charge greatly affects the overall accuracy of each individual firearm.

FYI- An accurate load requires a bullet with the proper consistent case neck tension which leads to more constant pressures and velocities.


2. Twist rate


The twist rate is measured by how many inches of bullet travel down the barrel it takes the rifling to twist the bullet one full turn. This measurement is called the “rate of twist” and is expressed as a ratio, such as 1:7, which means the bullet spins one full rotation in seven inches of barrel travel. The lower the ratio the faster the rate of twist.


3. How accurate is the TSX?


In testing we have found the TSX bullet to be very accurate. Handloader Magazine often prints their test results in which Barnes TSX bullets produce accuracy results that are just as good, if not better than match-grade bullets. A number of shooting schools use VOR-TX ammunition loaded with TSX bullets as their ‘go to’ brand to verify accuracy when a student’s rifle and ammunition does not produce acceptable results.

 

[AJC]

3. How accurate is the TSX?


In testing we have found the TSX bullet to be very accurate. Handloader Magazine often prints their test results in which Barnes TSX bullets produce accuracy results that are just as good, if not better than match-grade bullets. A number of shooting schools use VOR-TX ammunition loaded with TSX bullets as their ‘go to’ brand to verify accuracy when a student’s rifle and ammunition does not produce acceptable results.

I'll start with I know you did not say this. Now why would anyone use a completely different type of ammunition "solid" to verify accuracy. I believe most normal people would use a 69 or 77 grain federal gold medal match or a black hills load. They most likely donate or sell real cheap their ammunition to this school just to make that claim.

 

[243winxb]

Barnes TSX

all-copper bullets have/need there very own load data.

Its all about bullet construction & bearing surface. Even the lead core bullets may have 4 different alloys of lead (Sierra)

 

[Kurz]

I'll start with I know you did not say this. Now why would anyone use a completely different type of ammunition "solid" to verify accuracy. I believe most normal people would use a 69 or 77 grain federal gold medal match or a black hills load. They most likely donate or sell real cheap their ammunition to this school just to make that claim.

While I agree with you, I didn't think it was fair to edit any of their wording because I didn't agree. It felt wrong.

 

[PD Gohil]

1:8 twist. Loaded up this morning starting at 20.4 all the way through 23 grains. GottGot slightest primer flattening at 23. Was shooting point 82 MOA. Put my last group opened up like a shotgun so I don't know what happened. Labrador and I are still not on the best of terms so more fine tuning on that as well to be done