223 Accuracy. Is it capable?

[SecondsCount]

I have a friend that had a 223 1:8 twist 24" Bartlein barrel put on a trued Remington and is getting a little frustrated. I think it shoots well from the bench, averaging .3" groups but he has another guy saying that 6BR, etc. will shoot much better. Will they really shoot that much better or more consistent? I realize it won't hang with them at a benchrest match but is the caliber capable of more?

I forgot to mention that he has only used 69 SMK with Varget.

 

[CatShooter]

I have a friend that had a 223 1:8 twist 24" Bartlein barrel put on a trued Remington and is getting a little frustrated. I think it shoots well from the bench, averaging .3" groups but he has another guy saying that 6BR, etc. will shoot much better. Will they really shoot that much better or more consistent? I realize it won't hang with them at a benchrest match but is the caliber capable of more?

I forgot to mention that he has only used 69 SMK with Varget.

If the chamber is cut right, and the rest of the rig is put together right, it is capable of better - try some other bullets, and maybe better dies, and anneal your casses.

 

[jonbearman]

Try some berger bullets and use a few different weights to see what it likes.

 

[r bose]

So many things contribute to an accurate rifle INCLUDING the shooter. That said, the bedding, barreling, scope mounting and adjustments done properly, then the load workup and all that it entails, makes the whole package.

.3 groups are very good. Getting better ones will require very exact, precise, details on all fronts.

 

[searcher]

Your friend has been using the "gold standard" load used by many for targets with a .223. I believe that if that is the only load he has been shooting - the odds of the rifle being more capable are very high. I'd try some Reloader 15 with those 69's, then I'd get some Berger 52's and try them with LT32, then IMR8208XBR, then Reloader 7. I'd place a small wager one of those will do better. One can surely burn out a barrel trying the plethora of possibles in a .223! One of these has always produced in those rifles I have tried them in. The 6BR is inherently more accurate for several reasons but that also depends on the gun!

 

[bigedp51]

I'm 65 and have chronologically gifted eyesight with slight cataracts and drink too much coffee.

If I could shoot .3" groups I would kiss the rifle and then go home and kiss my wife and see if I could get lucky again.

 

[vmaxpro]

My old 223 26" with 75 amaxs and varget held its own against many 6br's out to 600 yards. Several 300 yard cloverleaf targets as well and one hell of a groundhog bullet!

 

[XTR]

I have a friend that had a 223 1:8 twist 24" Bartlein barrel put on a trued Remington and is getting a little frustrated. I think it shoots well from the bench, averaging .3" groups but he has another guy saying that 6BR, etc. will shoot much better. Will they really shoot that much better or more consistent? I realize it won't hang with them at a benchrest match but is the caliber capable of more?

I forgot to mention that he has only used 69 SMK with Varget.

Does the critic have one and can he put up the numbers? and even if your friend had the winning BR rifle from the Super Shoot could he put up .2s?

It is not that hard to make bullets and build a rig that will shoot .3s 100 or 200 yards if it's pretty calm, but getting consistently under ¼ MOA you are getting into the world of stacking nanopixies and nuons. It's not easy, and requires both outstanding equipment and a shooter who is really good.

I don't worry too much about what people say that they can do. I've pulled too many targets at 1000 yards from "all day if I do my part" guns, and if that's the case then maybe the shooters need to work on "their part" more than their loads.

 

[bheadboy]

to my knowledge in 100-300yd br, the 223 has never been competitive, the 222. 22ppc, 22br, 6br,and even the 30br etc have ruled for years and I have never personally heard of or seen a 223 that would get in there consistently.

now on the 600yd + stuff, hi bc heavy bullets some folks have very good results - different game

my trued 223 would not get under ,35-.4 consistently no matter what I did, I re chambered and same bbl is out shooting it in spades.

Bob

 

[XTR]

to my knowledge in 100-300yd br, the 223 has never been competitive, the 222. 22ppc, 22br, 6br,and even the 30br etc have ruled for years and I have never personally heard of or seen a 223 that would get in there consistently.

now on the 600yd + stuff, hi bc heavy bullets some folks have very good results - different game

my trued 223 would not get under ,35-.4 consistently no matter what I did, I re chambered and same bbl is out shooting it in spades.

Bob

I wasn't trying to say that a 223 would be competitive in BR, but if you are not competing and just poking holes in targets it will do someone fine until they decide what they really want to do. And do it for less $$, and if you don't have the reloading skills or rifle handling skills you wont get .2s with anything.

I took my rat gun out to confirm my zeros this week after I spun the 223 barrel back on and switched scopes. At 300 yards, shot 5 shots, cold bore was out of the group, the other 4 made 3 holes, 3/4 inch tall and 3/8 inch wide. That's a .286 group.


Rolled back to 600, shot 4 shots not even able to see where the group was forming, again just confirming zero, 1 ¼ inches tall and 2" wide. On target says .38 tall, .7 max

Not going to win any bench rest matches, but for F-TR it will shoot Xs. Cleaned 300 and 500 and won one of the 500 yard matches at the Sinclairs last month.

If you want to shoot BR get a BR gun, but if you don't have any idea what you want to shoot, then until you figure out what you want a 223 will shoot fine for most new shooters.

 

[bheadboy]

the posters question was:

"Will they really shoot that much better or more consistent?"

the answer is yes all thing equal, shooter, loading technique, etc.

they are more accurate, -- the answer to his question.

Bob

 

[swd]

Any rifle that shoots in the .3"s is nothing to sneeze at, especially if he has only tried one powder and bullet.

 

[XTR]

Any rifle that shoots in the .3"s is nothing to sneeze at, especially if he has only tried one powder and bullet.

The shooter in question is probably fairly inexperienced and is listening to an "all day if I do my part" shooter who is telling him that his problem is his 223, and if he really does wants to shoot 1s and 2s he does need to get another rifle, and in a couple of yrs and a couple of barrels, probably more, 8 different dies, a couple of bullets, neck turners, annealers, three or four powders, a barrel tuner, and at least two trimmers a couple of different stocks, stock tape, different bag fills, and at least two front rests unless he jumps into something top shelf right off, and a custom action somewhere up there, then he might start shooting consistent 1s and 2s in short range BR, maybe, if he learns how to handle a rifle

 

[Rtheurer]

6 rounds out of a 20" AR 15 @600 yards. I am still amazed at times what these little fellas can do.

 

[SecondsCount]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

I am going to suggest that he tries some heavier bullets and different powders. He has been using virgin Lapua brass and now that he has fired his first 100 rounds, I think it is time to anneal and some neck turning, both of which are new endeavors for us but I think it will be worth it.

 

[XTR]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

I am going to suggest that he tries some heavier bullets and different powders. He has been using virgin Lapua brass and now that he has fired his first 100 rounds, I think it is time to anneal and some neck turning, both of which are new endeavors for us but I think it will be worth it.

Before you start neck turning, work up a load with an 80 class bullet. I'd suggest Varget if you can find it, or H4895 for powder. (H4895 can be found right now) Others may work, I know those two will. Then after you have a load turn 20 and see how much it helps you. Work on one variable at a time. If you change bullets, powder, anneal and turn necks and it shoots like crap what went wrong?

I'm sure in the end turning necks will help some, but how much I've never seen quantified. It depends on how tight it's shooting in the first place. Shooting once fired brass with consistent neck tension will make a difference.

Did he run the new brass over an expander mandrel? If he didn't the neck tension was all over the place and way too high.

Don't try to do everything all at once, you can't tell what is helping or not. (which is one of the reasons a 223 is good for a starter, you won't wear out the barrel getting your first good load)

edit: one more thing, if you know someone who has a rifle that shoots in the 1s see if you can put up a couple of groups and compare what you can do to what the rifle can do. That can be humbling. I've had more problems with me than with my rifles

 

[Ohio Varmint Shooter]

If I could shoot .3" groups I would kiss the rifle and then go home and kiss my wife and see if I could get lucky again.

I'm kind of in the same boat. If I could consistently shoot .3" groups, I'd stop right there and write everything down. But I'm just a sportsman/hunter...not a benchrest shooter..whole different world I would imagine.

 

[vmaxpro]

6 rounds out of a 20" AR 15 @600 yards. I am still amazed at times what these little fellas can do.

Thats a beautiful thing...nice shootin!

 

[Tommie]

To answer the OP question, yes. Like others have said, I'd be happy to own a .223 that shoots in the 3's. It's possible that the gun is capable of even tighter groups. I found that as my technique improved my rifles "unexplainably" got more accurate. That .223 may be a great test mule to hone technique and load development. Then step up to a cartridge specifically designed for accuracy, take along everything learned for the .223 and really make some waves.

 

[Cyclops]

Is a 223 capable - yes.

My son began target shooting in FTR using a standard Savage Model 12 VLP DBM 223 with a 26" 1:7 twist barrel.

Firing 80 gr A-Max projectiles with 24.7 gr Varget in Norma cases this combination is competitive against 308s out to 900 yards and 1000 yards in lighter winds.

We only neck size the cases when depriming and haven't needed to trim any yet. Most cases are onto their 4th use. (We have about 400 cases that we are using.) The rifle has fired about 1200-1300 rounds in its first season of use.

So yes a 223 is capable, your friend and his rifle has to answer the question for themselves.