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223 90vld Dummy Rounds

I am going to have a 223 barrel done to shoot 90's. I have talked to a couple of you and you have helped me out greatly preparing for this. Everyone has recommended getting an PTG ISSF reamer which I had planned on until some bad communication between PTG and I and now I dont know if I want to wait the 8 weeks for a reamer. My smith is telling me to just make some dummy rounds for this barrel so I will be able to shoot it this summer if they make the bullets. I don't do any major competing and he said it should be just as good depending on my dummy rounds.

I wanted to get a general consensus to see if I will be done doing this is if I should order the reamer and shelf the idea until winter? My September, October, and November are crazy at work which is why I would have to wait that long.

I also understand these bullets are like gold right now, but if I go the throating route would any of you be willing to make me 3 dummy rounds so I could copy the issf specs?
 
I can help you with this. I'd be curious as to what specs to make the dummy rounds? I'm guessing I would make 3 rounds for you without primers where the ogive on the 90vld would have just touched the lands when my barrel (reamed with the ISSF reamer) was new?? I've had 4 barrels so I could do the average (which is still within a few thousands of each other). Drew
 
I am going to have a 223 barrel done to shoot 90's. I have talked to a couple of you and you have helped me out greatly preparing for this. Everyone has recommended getting an PTG ISSF reamer which I had planned on until some bad communication between PTG and I and now I dont know if I want to wait the 8 weeks for a reamer. My smith is telling me to just make some dummy rounds for this barrel so I will be able to shoot it this summer if they make the bullets. I don't do any major competing and he said it should be just as good depending on my dummy rounds.

I wanted to get a general consensus to see if I will be done doing this is if I should order the reamer and shelf the idea until winter? My September, October, and November are crazy at work which is why I would have to wait that long.

I also understand these bullets are like gold right now, but if I go the throating route would any of you be willing to make me 3 dummy rounds so I could copy the issf specs?
Hosted,
Tentative production date for the .224 90 grain VLD target bullets is end of June 2016. for making "dummy" round(s) for your new barrel I suggest seating the bullet into the cartridge case until the junction where the bearing surface drops into the tail is even with or slightly above the neck/shoulder junction. Read below to see instructions on seating depth testing for our VLD bullets to help with figuring for throat length using your dummy round as the gage. And to help with seating depth testing for barrel you have now.
Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:

  1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
  2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:

  1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
 
Drew, I left him a message because I never did ask how he wanted them loaded.

Barefooter, thanks for all of the information. I currently do play with seating depth on a couple of my rifles now using the 70vld. I use a Wilson seater die with micrometer top now also. I have 1000 of the 90's on back order now and could wait until they get here and load dummy rounds but I know most of these guys are having success with the issf reamer so I'd like to copy that fairly closly unless someone thinks that have an idea that would possibly improve it. It would also be kind of nice to have the barrel on or close to ready when the bullets finally show up.
 
If you don't want to wate 8 weeks. Take the bullet your planing to shoot. Seat the bullet where you want it and have it chambered to your case. Myself I like my bullets to have the boat tail to be foward of the donut . Larry
 
If you decide not to wait for the reamer, you have at least a couple options. The first is as you described; i.e. find out from your smith exactly where he wants the bullets to be seated. Different folks have had found quite different optimal seating depths for the 90 VLDs based on their specific rifles. I'm seating them at ~.018" off the lands. There are one or two others that have also found a similar optimal seating depth. At the other end of the spectrum, some people have found that about .010" into the lands works best. Because you do not yet know where your rifle will want them seated, my guess is that your smith might want the dummy rounds seated at approximately "touching", but I don't know that for sure. You won't be able to send him dummy rounds with the bullet seated optimally because you don't yet know where that depth is. The difference between the two extremes I listed above is almost .030", which is likely much more of a range than the smith is going to want to determine how to cut the throat. Let him tell you where the dummy rounds should be seated.

Alternatively, Kiff (PTG) may have one of their UniThroater hand throating tools currently in stock. You can call and find out. If your smith doesn't already have one, you could get one pretty quickly if they're in stock at PTG. With this tool, your smith (or you) can easily lengthen the freebore of a chamber cut with some other .223 Rem reamer to whatever you want. If you go this route, just be very conservative with the tool. It doesn't take much to remove the tiny amount of metal in the throat area and you don't want to lengthen the freebore too much. Other than being cautious when cutting, the tool works very, very well. For this approach, your smith need only use whatever .223 reamer he may already have that is appropriate, then lengthen the freebore with the UniThroater tool.

If you haven't already hooked up with one of the previous posters in this thread, send me a PM. I already have dummy rounds loaded for my rifle at ~.020" off the lands, which is as far as you'd really need to go in all likelihood, and at "touching". I could send these to you if they would be helpful. I'm in the process of packing/moving, so let me know if you're interested, send me your contact/shipping info, and I'll plan a trip to the Post Office next time I go out.

Just be aware that CBTO measurements of dummy rounds made by someone else will likely not be the same with your specific calipers/insert. I don't think the smith will care, but don't freak out if your measurements don't exactly match those made by whoever sends you the dummy rounds. Simply measure CBTO and COAL for the dummy rounds you're going to send to the smith with your own calipers and record the data, prior to sending them off.

Finally, with the 223 Rem ISSF reamer (0.169" freebore), bullets seated at .015" to .020" off the lands have the boattail/bearing surface junction very close to the neck/shoulder junction. It is just ever so slightly above. Really, you don't want [need] to go any farther off the lands than that. If anything, there is plenty of neck to move the shank farther out, so I'd be looking in that direction, definitely not any shorter. At the other end, maybe .010" into the lands is about as far as most people jamming them have found to be necessary. So you have an overall seating depth range of about .030". For that reason, it is probably not necessary to go through the VLD seating process from Berger outlined by Phil above. It's a great approach if you don't know where you'll be and has worked well for a number of folks. However, in this case you have some pretty solid information about the seating depth range successfully used by a number of shooters with the 90 VLD, so I'd start there first and possibly save yourself some time/effort. I have attached the print for the ISSF reamer below in case in might be helpful for you and/or your smith. Best of luck.

ISSF_zpsnxuohxio.jpg
 
He is going to use 223 reamer and a uni throater. I just talked to him and he said to size brass, trim to desired length and seat bullet. He said he will usually go a couple thousandths past the dummy round. He said to just seat them and let him know what i want. He said he could make the dummys touch the lands if I wanted but just let him know. I guess in my opinion we have a little bit of wiggle room.
 

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