223 30" vs 32"?

[Sumtoc]

Building an F-TR rig in 223 for mid range use. I have the option to run a 30 or 32 inch barrel. Any real advantage with the longer 32" flavor?

Thanks

 

[Rset]

The disadvantage to the 32" would be weight. Don't see any advantage to accuracy in a 32 over a 30.

 

[DocBII]

Sumtoc,

Probably not.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[TAJ45]

The disadvantage to the 32" would be weight. Don't see any advantage to accuracy in a 32 over a 30.

^^^^^^^ That is my opinion. Could set it back a couple of times as well. After multiple thousands of rounds.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The real advantage to a 32" barrel is that you can run the same (or even slightly higher) velocity in a tuned load at slightly lower pressure, so a 32" barrel would help a bit with brass life. If you don't want to run the heaviest, highest BC .224" bullets available (i.e. 88-90+ gr), you'll be giving up a significant amount of performance and would likely be better off going with a .308 Win, IMO. Running .224" heavies in F-TR can be pretty hard on .223 Rem brass unless you're willing to run a slower node, which again cuts down on performance. The disadvantages of a 32" barrel are the added weight as was previously mentioned, and the fact that the longer barrel increases friction/heat and therefore the odds of encountering jacket failure. If you decide to go with the 32" pipe, I would strongly recommend getting a 0.219" bore rather than a 0.218" bore. It may not seem like much, but the .0005" less land engravement depth on either side of the bullet seems to markedly reduce the propensity for jacket failure.

 

[Sumtoc]

Thanks guys.

Ned, this is not the ideal barrel (lighter than needed by a bit over a pound), but it's the best I can find given the current shortage. I've read most of your posts re: 223 for F class and appreciate your input. Not certain what the bore size is but it is a Bartlien 7 twist Light Palma contour. Finish length up to 32". Planning use it primarily for 600 yard local matches. Will probably move back to 308 for 1k yards.

Not sure I understand the second sentence in your response above: "If you don't want to run the heaviest, highest BC .224" bullets available (i.e. 88-90+ gr), you'll be giving up a significant amount of performance and would likely be better off going with a .308 Win, IMO." First of all, I'm moving to 223 from 308 due to gun handling challenges with the 308 and I think the little 223 will help (probably MAKE), me read the wind better.

I do plan to stay away from the heaviest (88-90+ gr) bullets, focusing instead on the 80s, 80.5 and 85.5.

With this in mind are you saying that the 32" option would be best for this range of bullet weights?

 

[Falfan2017]

Haven’t tried it but I’d be really surprised if the 223 is still gaining meaningful velocity from a 30 to a 32”.

 

[calgarycanada]

Haven’t tried it but I’d be really surprised if the 223 is still gaining meaningful velocity from a 30 to a 32”.

My thoughts exactly

 

[Sumtoc]

My thoughts exactly

This is also my opinion but as Ned points out it might help with life of the brass. The question being is that a real life difference or purely theoretical?

 

[CharlieNC]

I opted for 30" due to weight vs expecting a recognizable boost from 32"; this based on comparisons using Quick Load and ballistic apps. In addition recognize a longer barrel requires a longer forend in order to support balance and recoil control, thus adding more weight. Beyond 300yd the 90gr high BC bullets unequivocally provide superior performance, and is the predominant consideration.

 

[Sniper338]

There's a bigger advantage to be had going 308 over the 223. Personally.... personally I'd never even consider a 223. Its really not even competitive against someone who's got a 308 dialed in and is on their game. Jmo though. Ive never seen a 223 win personally.

 

[jr600yd]

Seen a lot of 223’s on the line, only one or two in the winners circle.

 

[Sumtoc]

Not going to the Nationals or even Regionals, local club matches only, all at 600 yards. I have realized that I am dropping more points due to bad or missed wind calls. This 223 rifle build will make me focus more on the wind, then I can go back to 308 later........ Sort of like practicing on a snooker table before a big $$ pool match.....

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks guys.

Ned, this is not the ideal barrel (lighter than needed by a bit over a pound), but it's the best I can find given the current shortage. I've read most of your posts re: 223 for F class and appreciate your input. Not certain what the bore size is but it is a Bartlien 7 twist Light Palma contour. Finish length up to 32". Planning use it primarily for 600 yard local matches. Will probably move back to 308 for 1k yards.

Not sure I understand the second sentence in your response above: "If you don't want to run the heaviest, highest BC .224" bullets available (i.e. 88-90+ gr), you'll be giving up a significant amount of performance and would likely be better off going with a .308 Win, IMO." First of all, I'm moving to 223 from 308 due to gun handling challenges with the 308 and I think the little 223 will help (probably MAKE), me read the wind better.

I do plan to stay away from the heaviest (88-90+ gr) bullets, focusing instead on the 80s, 80.5 and 85.5.

With this in mind are you saying that the 32" option would be best for this range of bullet weights?

When you choose to shoot a .223 in F-TR, even at only 600 yd, you will be giving up some performance to F-TR shooters using .308s with 200+ gr bullets. There is no way around it, so you have to be that much better with your wind calls. A number of F-TR shooters that use the 88-90 gr bullets will push them somewhere in the neighborhood of 2850 fps from a 30" barrel. Those are the loads I was referring to with regard to poor brass life. There is another node at around 2775 fps that some choose to shoot, but a load that is 75 fps slower with the same bullet, which is already at a slight disadvantage against .308s with 200s in the wind, only makes the disparity greater. Of course, the minimal recoil of the .223 Rem does buy you some forgiveness in terms of gun handling, IMO. But that does not completely offset the disadvantages of the lower BC .224 bullets when the wind is up.

If you choose to go with the next lighter class of bullets (i.e. those in the ~80 gr range), you can certainly push them faster than the 88s or 90s, due to the lighter weight. However, it is rare that you can ever push a lighter, lower BC bullet fast enough to overcome the BC deficit as compared to a heavier, higher BC bullet. I know of at least one example where it does work, but most of the time you simply cannot push the lighter bullet fast enough at safe operating pressure to overcome the BC deficit. So by choosing one of the ~80 gr bullets, you should be able to get them moving somewhere in the 2950-3000 fps range with a 30-32" barrel, but the performance in terms of windage will be poorer than it would be if using the 88-90 gr bullets. For example, the predicted windage at 600 yd for a Berger 90 VLD running at 2850 fps muzzle velocity under fairly typical midwest atmospheric conditions (70 degrees, 50% humidity, 1000 ft elevation, 10 mph full-value wind) is 3.7 MOA, or 23.1". For a Berger 80.5 Fullbore running at 3000 fps, the predicted windage is 4.3 MOA, or 26.7". That's a difference in predicted windage of 0.6 MOA, which is not small. With such a sizable difference, to compete on even terms your wind calls wouldn't just have to be a little better, they'd have to be a LOT better. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it puts a greater burden on the shooter to do everything perfectly. I shoot the 80.5s in a practice rifle, and I know several F-TR shooters that also use them in competition, so I have a pretty good idea how the 80.5s perform. The folks I know that use them typically don't fare so well in matches when the wind is strong. As has been noted, the extra 2" of barrel isn't likely to generate much more velocity than a 30" barrel, something like 20-25 fps in a tuned load would be my guess. But it does allow you to achieve the same velocity at lower pressure, which may be of benefit in terms of improving brass life. I don't believe that brass life with the ~80 gr bullets is quite as bad as it is with the 88s/90s, but running a little lower pressure is still a good thing.

The 85.5 Hybrids are somewhat in a class of their own. As expected, the BC falls somewhere in between the ~80 and ~90 gr weight classes. However, it appears as though they're going to tune in only slightly faster than a 90 VLD, at least from a 30" pipe. So the predicted windage is still in favor of the 90 VLD. Having said that, the 85.5 might represent less of a performance deficit to the 88s/90s than the ~80 gr weight class. In all likelihood, the main difference there might well come down to how well each of particular bullets shoots in a given rifle, as opposed to such a large difference in performance as with the 80s.

The other good news about bullets in the ~80 gr range with your 32" barrel is that they're a lot less likely to suffer jacket failure than the 88s or 90s would in a barrel of that length. I presume the shorter bullet bearing surface has much to do with that. You can push them pretty hard and get away with it, even during the long strings of fire we use in F-Class. Nonetheless, it will take greater wind-reading proficiency behind the rifle when using the lighter bullets. Will that necessarily force you to become a better wind reader? Maybe, maybe not. Just because someone uses a load that exhibits much greater wind deflection in a given condition does not guarantee they will become a better wind reader. Some will, some won't. If you're willing to practice and work with it regularly, I think you can certainly achieve that goal.

The bottom line here is that you already have the barrel. I went into some detail in the above information because you requested it. However, my intention was certainly not to discourage you from the path you have chosen. Rather, it's merely additional information so you know what you'll be dealing with by going that route. Make no mistake, a .223 Rem in the right hands can be deadly at 600 yd in F-TR. I have won a lot of F-TR matches with a .223 at the local/state/regional level against shooters using .308s with heavy, high BC bullets. Sometimes the looks you get are priceless. But when I made the decision to shoot a .223 Rem in F-TR many years ago, I recognized the potential disadvantages that came along with it and therefore set it up to use the highest possible BC bullet available at the time, Berger's 90 VLD. I wanted to get the very most I could out of a .223 Rem setup and think the 90 VLD is still the best choice available for F-TR, although there are a few more competitive bullet choices now than there were 7 or 8 years ago. In any event, the most important thing is to get out and participate. Your setup will allow you to do that. If you work at it, it may also help you to improve your wind-reading abilities. It may also turn out that you can be VERY competitive with it. It's really hard to say because so many variables go into that equation, such as the typical wind conditions where you shoot most often, your motivation/work ethic in terms of practicing and improving your wind-reading skills, etc. That is why I usually only throw theoretical/predicted information in threads such as this. They are usually the only concrete information we have to go by. Nonetheless, as long as you are enjoying yourself and having fun, that's the most important part of competition, IMO. I think you will be very pleased with your setup and if you ever decided you wanted to switch over to the 88s/90s in the future, it would only require a new barrel/chamber, so you could really do that at any time if you wanted. Best of luck with it.

PS - find yourself some H4895, no matter what it takes. There isn't a better powder for the .223 Rem with 80-90 gr bullets and it's as rare as hens teeth right now.

 

[Sumtoc]

Thanks so much Ned, these are the details I was hoping for. Truthfully, I know it will be tougher with the 223 but for me it'll be an interesting challenge. Long ago I won a local 600 yd F-TR match using my High Power space gun on a Harris bipod. Frankly, the competition and equipment wasn't what it is today but I also enjoyed beating those guys with the 308s, they were a little surprised to say the least. (The wind was also very forgiving that day.....) I hope to have a ShotMarker system in hand later this month and I look forward to regular practice at distances where the wind is a real factor (600-1000). Prior to this my only shooting at those distances was at an actual match.

 

[Longtrain]

I ran a Tikka 595 in 223 with a 26” barrel for XTC matches. Burned that barrel and another before I gave up XTC. So, it’s now a 30” 223AI which shoots amazingly well. The 30” was only for the option of shooting irons, giving me the longer sight radius. But, I can push 80.5 Berger to 3050 FPS w/o pressure signs. Since I only shoot it for 300 yard midrange matches, it’s more then enough. Actually, I did some accuracy testing with RE-15 just before the cold weather set in and found that a load that gave me 2940 was even more accurate then the 3050 load. More work is necessary, but the 2950 FPS node seems to be the most accurate load in my rifles that can get there.