221 fireball neck size, and dies

[DanK]

Getting ready to order my barrel from pac-nor. What is your favorit neck size for your little 221 fireball?

Also, what are your favorit dies for your little fireball?

I am planning on getting some kind of tight neck, just have not decide yet because I have no brass and bullits as of yet. I just wanted some opinions about neck size and dies for it. So I may get on the phone and start ordering.

 

[LHSmith]

What action are you using?
Are you using Rem. 221 FB brass....or forming from something else.
The type of brass and type of prep determines neck diameter.
You realize that tight neck chambers require you to neck turn the brass......this can be a BIG PITA ....and depending on your type and quality of action it might not gain you much in accuracy dividends.
Figure around $125 for neck turning equip. and a decent micrometer.
You'll loose some brass each batch because s#1t happens.
If you don't have windflags,and don't plan on using them....then just go with the standard neck size.

 

[DanK]

LHSMITH.

The action I am going to use is the Savage target action.
The brass I will using will be remington.
I have the micometer,just need a neck turner and dies.
I plan on using wind flags when benching the gun at the range.

I understand that trimming brass to make it fit you will be losing brass, But you only have to do that once if you do it right from my understanding of it. I read that on Varmit ALs page on reloading for a tight neck.

 

[LHSmith]

Generally, you buy one 'lot' of brass, take a couple cases, run the expander thru the neck, chamfer and deburr, and seat your bullet of choice....then mike the neck of the loaded round.....add .002' clearance = desired finished neck diameter of chamber.
In the case of 221 FB, and you plan on using Rem. brass....you have to assume you'll have to skim-cut the necks in order to maintain consistancy in neck tension.
I measured several of my 221 FB loaded rounds,Rem. brass with 50 grain Ballistic Tip). Brass of 2008 manufacture.
They ranged from 0.2486' to 0.2495'.
You want to keep the brass cut to a minimum.
I would say a 0.248 neck would be good.......you would trim your brass to net a loaded round of 0.246'.
I checked the rental reamer outfits and they list the 0.253' as standard neck dia.
You probably have to go with what reamer they have on hand, they have only the most popular sizes, other than charging you for a custom size reamer.

 

[DanK]

LHSMITH..

Your loads are 0.248 and the standard reamer is 0.253 subtracting the two give .005. Thats not to bad is it? All Though .003 probably would be Ideal.

If I go with a standard chamber how could I get the number down to 003? Who makes a thicker case? I thought only Remington made the fireball case?

I know.. your going to teach me how to make cases from norma or lapua right I am not sure whats involved in that, hope its not that complicated.

 

[DanK]

Well I just looked at the reamer print from pacnor. It is a .254 neck. That would give me a .006 clearence for the neck.

I wonder what lapua or norma brass measures, to see it will take up some space.

 

[LHSmith]

Lapua brass in .223, or soon to be re-released .222,is what I would use......however, I just got my FB and don't plan on making brass for it.....I have enough trouble getting time to make PPC and 30 BR brass.
Go to Saubier.com to see what's entailed.....These guys specialize in small calibers and their wildcats.
As a matter of fact there is a thread on this very subject being discussed right now.
BTW 0.005 ain't too bad , but I got a factory chamber and my neck is probably 0.256.
Being Remington brass, you just don't know what tolerances will be with the next production run.

 

[LHSmith]

DanK......
Since, the FB has thrown you a stumbling block,i.e lack of easily made good brass................
Did you consider the 222 ....the most accurate 100-200 yard cartridge before the 6 PPC.
Lapua is making the brass, ,in -house now) and it very likely will be consistant and wouldn't have to be neck-turned....use it right from the box.
.....It sure would solve alot of potential reloading problems...and be more accurate than the FB.
I have an accurized 700 HV and it shoots along with my PPC if conditions are fair.


What barrel contour, twist, and length were you thinking?

 

[DanK]

LHSMITH...

That was a great link you sent me to. I did find the thread about 222 and 223 brass forming for the fireball. It does not seem that difficult to me. But that may change once I try to do it.:crazy:

Now you have giving me the idea of the 220 Russian case. I will look into that. Its sounds promising. Now I have to do more research on a 220 Russian, when it seems like I have been doing research on the 221 fireball 20vartage 222 rem for a year, trying to decide what i want to do. Now I have another wrench into play:cry:

All kidding aside, that's for all your help.. I have been learning a lot, and I thank you and everyone else for that.

 

[LHSmith]

Actually, I edited the 220 Russian post....it is a different case head diameter,.373 vs. .441 ?)..and your bolt may not be able to be modified to work....assuming you already ordered the action.

 

[DanK]

LHSMITH...

Yes, I have been thinking really hard on the 222. But I keep hearing that the 221 fireball is a pretty quiet round for what you get, and is accurate. I keep hearing Bug hole accurate.

This is where I am stuck between the two.. I know the 222 would be a tack driver for sure, but I don't know how much louder it is than the fireball.

Nobody at the range has a fireball or a 222. So I thought about just building a fireball and see how it goes. If it didn't work out the way that I had planed, then I would just get the 222 barrel and see how that works out.

 

[LHSmith]

I tried to locate the decibel ratings for these two cartridges, and the best I can estimate they probably share the same dB number.....a .22 pistol and a 12 gauge are only 4 dB apart.
Put another way, if you fired two similar rifles, one chambered for the FB, and one the .222......you would be hard pressed to discern the difference.

 

[alf]

I had a Fireball several years ago, in fact, wore the barrel out shooting prairie dogs. A great cartridge, 40's at 3500 and low noise. You guys are now finding out about the problems associated with it. Like the .253/.254 neck thing, and the brass that doesn't match. My brass, I believe, measured .246 loaded. If I was to do one again, it would with at least a .248 max chamber and skim cut the necks. Zero free bore too, for the smaller bullets. Use Wilson neck and seater dies. You won't need a full length die, as the primer pocket will go first.

I have since consolidated all my closer range dog guns to the 223. Same principal though, .250 neck, zero freebore. I'd a done a .248, but my buddy doesn't turn necks.

Al

 

[DanK]

alf...

Shilen makes a .246 and .250 neck. I was thinking of the .250 if most peoples loaded round is at .248 or .249

 

[alf]

Dan,

If you don't wanna turn, I'd do the 250 and not worry about it. I'm sure it'll be fine. Damn site better than 253/254 necks.

With the consistency of Remington brass and turning not bothering me, personally, I'd go .246, which would let me clean the necks up all the way around.

Al

 

[DanK]

LHSMITH...

You are probably right. I think I may go with the 222. Because for one, I know the 222 is a tack driver bung holer. And two, I can get lapua brass for it. That way, I should not be disappointed in the accuracy department. After all, it will probably be on the bench more than hunting with it.

Ok that's it... I have finally made a decision after all this time. 222 here I come

Now all I have to do is get some brass and bullits and dies, load a round, and see what neck size I need.

 

[LHSmith]

What? You weren't impressed by the .12 Squirrel cartridge they discussed over on Saubier.com?
Let us know what other particulars you have in mind for your build...stock type, barrel details, etc.. We want to confuse you even more.
There is one small caveat to your decision. The .222 Lapua brass was previously farmed out, Lapua did not make it--only put their name on it). Some have claimed it wasn't up to Lapua's in-house quality. The good news is they are in the process of making the next batch -in-house.....and may be another month till it shows up at the dealers.
When you buy your brass, make every effort to get the new production...it may save a lot of headaches.

 

[SmokinJoe]

Like LHSmith says, make sure you get the new stuff made in-house. And, you would be wise to wait until you get it to make a neck diameter decision, unless someone can tell you absolutely for sure what the neck thickness will be for this brass. Then, when you buy the brass, buy a bunch of it so things will stay consistent for the foreseeable future.

 

[DanK]

Crap!Crap! Crap!:, I just went to Lapua's web site, and they don't even have 222 brass advertised.

How would I know if the brass was made in house or not?

What brass did they use back in the day when everyone was using the 222 for bench rest?

 

[LHSmith]

Most reputable vendors will tell you if it's of recent manufacture. Virtually all of the previous batch apparently has been sold...as there is constant WTB requests for this brass.
35 years ago most brass was pretty good quality wise, so what worked back then is immaterial today.Like Jackie Schmidt from over on BRC claims......there were two eras in Benchrest....Before Lapua....and After Lapua.