221 Fireball Case Specs Questions - Making from Remington 223 Brass

[TheCZKid]

I've been making brass for my 20 VarTarg from LC brass, and having great results. I do have some of those for sale here on AS.

I've thought there probably would be a need for 221 Fireball brass for sale, as that's not really available right now, I could make some.

So, I have the Redding 221 forming die, and the Redding FL Sizing die, so I'm ready to make 221 FB brass. I just did a test run on a piece of Remington .223 brass, and it looks great, but I don't know what the correct wall thickness the necks should be. My Vartarg is good at .0120" wall thickness...

Can someone tell me how thick the neck wall should be? I turn my 20 VT brass when I make that from LC, I assume the 221 FB brass would also need to be turned

Question #1, please let me know what you 221 FB guys suggest for correct Neck wall thickness.

Question #2, would there be an interest in buying some nicely made 221 FB brass, say from Remington .223, or other brand brass? I've got a lot of Remington and Winchester in .223 as donors, also some Federal.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Question #1, please let me know what you 221 FB guys suggest for correct Neck wall thickness.

Me? Depends on the size of YOUR chamber neck.
IMHO, Don't be turning case necks unless you have no other choice.
But you DO have a choice. Make it YOUR way.

 

[JSH]

Going to factory specs it needs turned.
I was gifted some 221 made from 5.56, made by brass giant or some such outfit. Buddy bought it and found necks for thick to chamber and he didn’t neck turn, rifle was a factory rig.
I have heard others say it worked fine.

 

[dellet]

Whether it “needs” to be turned will depend on brass and chamber combo. If you are offering it to others, it should probably be turned.

The 300 Blackout was based on the 221 Fireball brass, not .223/556. This was a huge problem, even in a more generous chamber.

The reason is pretty simple. Besides neck thickness variations of .010-.015” among 223/556 brass manufacturers, there is always a taper to the neck. Sometimes that taper can be .003”+. The taper comes from forming the neck from the body of the donor cartridge, below the neck. The farther down you cut the case, the more taper there will be.

It’s a pretty tight chamber to start with.

 

[SmokinJoe]

Mike, most of my Rem/Win 223 and 221 brass loads out at .248 +/- outside neck diameter, which would translate to a nominal .012 neck thickness and that is what I would do with brass for sale to the general public. There are quite a few bolt guns with custom chambers with .250 necks.

 

[Bill K]

I turn my necks on 221FB, 20 VT, 20 SCC brass all to .012, when I form it from LC.

 

[TheCZKid]

I turn my necks on 221FB, 20 VT, 20 SCC brass all to .012, when I form it from LC.

From what I could find in searching, unless someone has a custom chamber, the nominal neck thickness for 221 FB cases would be .012 to .011 thickness, yielding about .003 clearance per side in the necks after loading.

When I'm making 20 Vartarg from Lake City, the neck walls start at about .0155, same with the RP case I did as a test. That would not fit in any chamber I know of. So, yeah, I turn my 20 VT cases to have a .012 neck wall. And likely that would work for most people who might normally buy and use factory 221 FB brass guess. I would say, in general, for the 221 FB they would "need" to be less than .0155 thickness, so need to be turned. I was just trying to find out what factory 221 FB brass neck thickness has as a neck thickness, for a common chamber. I have no factory 221 FB brass on-hand to check. I think Lapua is thicker than RP or Nosler.

As the question #2, whether people here might be interested in 221 FB cases formed from any particular brand of brass, I didn't see any speculation on any comments yet. From what I hear, Lapua stopped making the caliber, and Nosler brass is about $134 for 100, if it could be found.

 

[Coyote Shooter]

I'd be interested in 221 f.b. brass, could you pm me price your thinking

 

[grovey]

I once made about 20 221fb cases from 223 brass just to see, and thought it too much hassle to cut and neck turn it to fit. In a pinch it might be an alternative, but I wonder how uniform it would be.

 

[Litespeed]

I just measured quite a bit of new factory Remington .221 fireball and all were between .011 and .013 indicating turning to .012 would likely replicate the factory brass.

 

[JSH]

I once made about 20 221fb cases from 223 brass just to see, and thought it too much hassle to cut and neck turn it to fit. In a pinch it might be an alternative, but I wonder how uniform it would be.

I started a 20 Vartarg project a while back. 221 brass was sparse and pricey as all get out. I bought brand new virgin 222 brass and used that.
Mini chop saw from harbor freight, a 3D printed jig fixture to rough cut.
Set up an extra Forster trimmer as some what of a lathe to final trim and neck turn with.
Yeah it burned up numerous evenings left last winter.
Would I do it again?
Yeah. If I wear this batch out.
Maybe Starline will offer some 221 at some point, the make 300BO now. Wouldn’t think it would be to hard to go smaller.

 

[grovey]

I started a 20 Vartarg project a while back. 221 brass was sparse and pricey as all get out. I bought brand new virgin 222 brass and used that.
Mini chop saw from harbor freight, a 3D printed jig fixture to rough cut.
Set up an extra Forster trimmer as some what of a lathe to final trim and neck turn with.
Yeah it burned up numerous evenings left last winter.
Would I do it again?
Yeah. If I wear this batch out.
Maybe Starline will offer some 221 at some point, the make 300BO now. Wouldn’t think it would be to hard to go smaller.

Yep.... It was a chore when i did it, but having better tools would of helped. I used a dremel cutting wheel to rough cut to length, a Lyman trimmer, and neck turned by hand. In the end it worked. I remember buying 3 calibers 221,223, and 22/250 of Lapua brass at that time, and the small 221 FB cases were the most UN uniform of the 3. Very disapointed with that, and never got the rifle to shoot as well with that L brass as the beat on Norma cases i'd been using.

 

[linebaugh]

From what I could find in searching, unless someone has a custom chamber, the nominal neck thickness for 221 FB cases would be .012 to .011 thickness, yielding about .003 clearance per side in the necks after loading.

When I'm making 20 Vartarg from Lake City, the neck walls start at about .0155, same with the RP case I did as a test. That would not fit in any chamber I know of. So, yeah, I turn my 20 VT cases to have a .012 neck wall. And likely that would work for most people who might normally buy and use factory 221 FB brass guess. I would say, in general, for the 221 FB they would "need" to be less than .0155 thickness, so need to be turned. I was just trying to find out what factory 221 FB brass neck thickness has as a neck thickness, for a common chamber. I have no factory 221 FB brass on-hand to check. I think Lapua is thicker than RP or Nosler.

As the question #2, whether people here might be interested in 221 FB cases formed from any particular brand of brass, I didn't see any speculation on any comments yet. From what I hear, Lapua stopped making the caliber, and Nosler brass is about $134 for 100, if it could be found.

I might be interested. Depends on price and quality. I have 500 lapua but it wont last forever and I like to have extra of everyting.

 

[TheCZKid]

Here's a place that offers once fired LC cases turned into 221 FB, for $65.99 per 100 + shipping. I don't think they are annealed, and certainly are not neck turned, but that's a good price for what they offer.

Sleeping Giant Brass : 221 Fireball Brass (100ct)

Sleeping Giant Brass Aberdeen, SD

sleepinggiantbrass.com

 

[wkndwarrior]

Here's a place that offers once fired LC cases turned into 221 FB, for $65.99 per 100 + shipping. I don't think they are annealed, and certainly are not neck turned, but that's a good price for what they offer.

Sleeping Giant Brass : 221 Fireball Brass (100ct)

Sleeping Giant Brass Aberdeen, SD

sleepinggiantbrass.com

Definitely not a bad price for what's offered. I formed up around 1200 cases last year and it was quite a bit of work. It's good I didn't see the videos on dillon progressive set ups for forming with case trimmers or I might have gone off the deep end.

 

[JSH]

Definitely not a bad price for what's offered. I formed up around 1200 cases last year and it was quite a bit of work. It's good I didn't see the videos on dillon progressive set ups for forming with case trimmers or I might have gone off the deep end.

Lol, you formed 1200, you already off the deep end ;-).
I did about half that many, neck turned and annealed. I ordered some more virgin brass for just in case.
It’s a bit of work forming and making brass. But, for me it is much like casting bullets, gives me a lot of satisfaction that I made it.

 

[Rick300]

Here's a place that offers once fired LC cases turned into 221 FB, for $65.99 per 100 + shipping. I don't think they are annealed, and certainly are not neck turned, but that's a good price for what they offer.

Sleeping Giant Brass : 221 Fireball Brass (100ct)

Sleeping Giant Brass Aberdeen, SD

sleepinggiantbrass.com

I bought 500 20 Vartarg brass from them a couple of years ago and wouldn't do it again. I think it was machine gun brass as it was all over the place and quite a few started separating at the .200 line. 221 Fireball is very expensive so I ended up buying a Bullberry form die and 1600 Starline 223 brass. All is good now.

 

[wkndwarrior]

Lol, you formed 1200, you already off the deep end ;-).
I did about half that many, neck turned and annealed. I ordered some more virgin brass for just in case.
It’s a bit of work forming and making brass. But, for me it is much like casting bullets, gives me a lot of satisfaction that I made it.

I didn't mention that I have another 1200 cases half way prepped and destined to be 17 fireball, although I took a break when I was having some trouble setting up the dies to neck them down to 17. I agree, there's a lot of satisfaction in doing it.