221, 222, 223, 222 Mag ?

[Hammer]

If loaded in barrels of the same twist and length and loaded to the same pressure with a powder suitable for all of them...

Would the velocities of the 221 Rem, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, and the 222 Rem Mag all graphically line up on a curve with powder capacity on the horizontal axis and velocity on the verticle axis ?

All the published data have the 222 Rem and the 222 Rem Mag unnecessarily loaded to lighter pressures than their 221 and 223 cousins.

The Remington 700 actions for all are the same. Barrel steel is the same.

And if the brass in the cases are different,don't believe they are), they could be case formed from the same basic brass or from 204 Ruger which is loaded to high pressure.

.

 

[halfmile]

I'm not sure but published data may take certain guns into account when the pressure limitations are established.

Try buying any 45 Long colt ammo that goes more than 900 FPS. All the old Single action Army guns are not strong enough to handle Contender and Blackhawk max loads. so you can't get stout ammo.

Load manuals have a separate section for these.

Not meaning to digress, but maybe a similar situation exists here. .204 is a new caliber and commercial loads are right up there. but there are a lot of Deuces out there that may not handle that type of pressure.

JMO

HM

 

[acloco]

"Would the velocities of the 221 Rem, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, and the 222 Rem Mag all graphically line up on a curve with powder capacity on the horizontal axis and velocity on the verticle axis ?"

Does your question mean "which case has the best ability to burn all the powder?"

If looking for a 22 sized bullet in the smaller case, I would HIGHLY recommend the 223 AI.

I have a 204 as well...and am truly amazed. About 600-650 yards with 40 grain VMax is it.

I want to stretch the 223 AI to 700...and then start working on my 243.

 

[Hammer]

I'm not sure but published data may take certain guns into account when the pressure limitations are established.

You are right concerning many cartridges and the loading manuals.

But try to think which rifle the 222 Rem or 222 Rem Mag was ever built on that anyone would consider weak or sub-standard ?

They had a unique bolt face size so they were not easily or cheaply built on older guns by gunsmiths.

The most common rifles in their early years were Remington 700,722) or Sakos, both known as strong guns and the same used for 223 Rem.

 

[bmx]

Look at the case blueprints and you will find the .204 and the .223 have heavier wall and web sections. We make .20-.222 cases out of Lapua .223 match brass and can really load them up.

 

[Hammer]

So if we load the 222 and 222 Mag from Lapua formed brass, we can match the pressures and then get the logical velocities that the case capacities indicate we should ?


What's interesting was that when the 222 was King of Benchrest, benchrest competitors loaded the 222 and its various wildcat offspring in their Remington 40X and converted 700s to velocities higher than the factory 223 was then loaded. And their brass lasted forever. Yes, they did have tight chambers in their Shilen and Hart barrels, but those shooting factory 40X rifles had SAAMI chambers.

 

[TravisC]

There is one last cartridge that you didn't mention .22/204. I've had a huge crush on this one for a while. I hear all the time why not .222 MAG? Well the 204 case necked down has more capacity than all of them. Think about it if the .223 improved does 4000 fps with a 40 vmax, then what does the 204 do? Does it take it to the realm of the Swift? One thing is for sure, Alot less powder is burned here.

 

[Cheechako]

Hammer

Get a case or three of each cartridge and measure the water capacity. That will tell you more than any hypothetical loading scenarios.

JMHO

Ray

 

[acloco]

There is one last cartridge that you didn't mention .22/204. I've had a huge crush on this one for a while. I hear all the time why not .222 MAG? Well the 204 case necked down has more capacity than all of them. Think about it if the .223 improved does 4000 fps with a 40 vmax, then what does the 204 do? Does it take it to the realm of the Swift? One thing is for sure, Alot less powder is burned here.

Travis - run the ballistics on a 204 with a 40 gr bullet...it already IS in the 220 Swift territory...and actually surpasses it in some.

 

[Ackman]

I think it's highly unlikely that a really accurate comparison like that could be done. I've had large velocity differences between barrels that supposedly had the same spec's and were chambered with the same reamer. Doing several different cartridges would make it even more iffy. What's important anyway is regardless of pressure, where on the velocity scale does accuracy appear...... that can vary quite a bit too.

There is one last cartridge that you didn't mention .22/204. I've had a huge crush on this one for a while. I hear all the time why not .222 MAG? Well the 204 case necked down has more capacity than all of them. Think about it if the .223 improved does 4000 fps with a 40 vmax, then what does the 204 do? Does it take it to the realm of the Swift? One thing is for sure, Alot less powder is burned here.

Seeing what happens when a case goes from .22 to 6mm, the 22-204 looked interesting. The 223AI is just a terrific cartridge and one of my favorites. With 40's doing 4100-4200 accurately,my rifle), at practical distances it's essentially identical to the .204. An IMI .223AI case holds 1.5gr more POWDER,not water) than the std. .223 case. And accuracy is with top-end loads. A 204 case is longer and the shoulder is considerably further forward.....Win. 204 brass holds 1gr more VVI33 powder than a .223AI. Seeing the 6BR / 22BR and 6-250 / 22-250 relationship, for a long time I wondered what the 22-204 would do. In my .223AI, 1/2gr powder = about 100fps. Even allowing for the strength difference between IMI 223 and Win. 204, a 22-204 looks interesting. So I spec'd a nice tight reamer and right now it's at the gunsmith along with a .223AI reamer, 2 actions and 2 Krieger barrels both 14" twist....... one will be .223AI and the other a .22-204. Hoping for as equal a comparison as possible. We'll see what happens. The 22-204 may be a worthwhile step up, may not.

BTW - Ruger has been working with a 22-204, along with a .17-204. It seems to take them forever to get anything actually introduced, but I won't be surprised if or when it happens.

 

[TravisC]

I'm aware that there is time involved in the building a rifle and working up loads, but I will be on this page nearly every day to see the results. I am glad that someone agrees that there is potentially something to gain in this. I REALLY can't wait.

 

[bcp]

The 222 is popular in Europe in break-open rifles. Could European standards have been lower than US, then US was lowered to match?

Has the 222 pressure standard ALWAYS been where it is today, or was it once higher?

Remington would have standardized the 222 with SAAMI before any competitors chambered it in weaker rifles, not after.

The 340 Savage was chambered successfully in 225 Win, a larger, higher pressure cartridge than the 222.

Bruce

 

[L461]

I know this is an old thread but did anyone do this and how did it go.

 

[HawkI]

I have played with all of these cases, and frankly the biggest case always wins.

The 222 will easily run 150-200 of a 223, not the oft noted 300. The Mag will run about 100 over a 223.

The brass web thickness is a new one I have never heard of; I suppose thicker means stronger, but to most who have loaded that is definitely not a fact, and certainly a light case can be strong so far as loading longetivity.

Both the 222 and 222 Mag were chambered for petite single shots and combo guns and the single lug 340 Savage, and in the case of the 222, "rimfire" sized actions from Anschutz. Pressures would/could never be increased due to those guns existing, plus the fact owning a NATO/military cartridge is taboo in some Euro states.

It is interesting that I have an old IMR powder guide from the mid 60's that has 223 loads maxed at the same pressure (50,000 CUP) as the 222 Mag, IIRC and speed favored the Mag from 50-100 fps, depending on the fuel. I also believe the military loading was increased in pressure and eventually, so was factory loadings to 55,000 CUP.

FWIW the 222 Mag has slightly more capacity than a 223 AI and runs heavier bullets quite well; a factory 22-204 would be a fine chambering, and should Ruger be watching, please make the twist at least 1-9!

 

[cliffy]

AVAILABILITY: .223 Remington for good reasons: mostly 5.56mm NATO compatible in many cases, most modern rifles are chambered for .223 Remington. When I pick-up spent brass, it's almost always .223 Remington or 5.56mm NATO, so I usually have a surplus of such reloadable brass. I cannot remember the last .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, or .222 Remington Magnum brass I've scrounged. Want a new varmint rifle? The .223 Remington will be around when all it's bretheren reach rare collector status. A .223 Remington is ACCURATE, DEADLY, DEPENDABLE same as Hornady bullets ARE. Why fight the inevitable? To prove what? Cliffy

 

[HawkI]

I don't pick up spent brass, unless its my own or of a known quantity; Its there to buy in lot, quantity and make.

When I want a new rifle, I get what I want. The proof is I got what I wanted.

Most folk don't find 6BR or PPC brass lying at the range either, and availability is not always stellar, yet a site exists....

Can say after the last round of shortages the 222 cases were easier to find than 223's, but perhaps not for range rummage.

 

[Kenny474]

Availability? That's the funniest thing I have ever heard! How can anyone figure it's any easier to find brass for a .223 than it is for a .222? I have a .222, and I can make brass from .223, 5.56, .222mag, or just buy .222 brass. But if I can't find .222 brass, it only takes a trip through a FL die for the .223 brass and it's ready to load. Or if you want to get fancy, they make form dies as well.

So when another brass and ammo shortage comes around and your struggling to find that .223 brass that the AR guys buy by the thousands, I will be at the range ripping off the .222 rounds that I either bought or formed from the other compatible rounds.

 

[oldroper]

I've been loading over 45yrs now and been thru acouple shortage time or two. If you shoot the 222mag and 6x47 (6x222mag) like I do you normally have a good supply of factory brass.

 

[wapiti25]

Keep in mind that there are difference's in the .223 and 5.56 chambers, they may be slight but they are different. The throat is one area because of the bullet's they use. Your brass is the weak link in a rifle, it seals the gas in! After the strength of your action you can only load to a pressure that is compatible with case and primer.