With all of variances of 22lr ammunition along with the scarcity of preferred ammunition. Is a tuner necessary and if so which ones do the best with the various assortment of ammo? I would think that threading a barrel to accept a tuner would just be the right thing for possible tuning a assortment of ammunition. Opinions and suggestions as to which ones are better than others.
22 lr Tuners
- Thread starter 46490
- Start date
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
I am afraid you will be very disappointed in using a tuner if you think or believe you can use one to tune ammo. using a tuner is about timing the bullet's exit from the barrel.
Lee
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Harrell's tuners are machined to clamp onto the muzzle so threading is not required. Google Geoff Kolbe article which demonstrates how a tuner helps dial in positive compensation to help mitigate the effect of ammo velocity differences. It's a help, but not a cure all.
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Correct me if this is wrong but PC is supposed to compensate for deviations in the ammo's velocity? if this is correct doesn't it mean you can shoot any lot speed and they will shoot 1-hole if you truly have PC, since PC will adjust for the velocity difference which would have an effect on POI
IMO, I don't believe PC is obtainable at best you can get a rifle to shoot lots into the same group but not in a way PC will be evident like all in the same hole.
Lee
CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
Tuners act on the harmonics of the barrel with the ammo speed being used so that the bullet exits the muzzle at the same point in the arc. Different speeds and even different lots with the same speeds do not mean that the tuner setting will be the same. Getting the most consistent ammo is the biggest part in the 22 rf game. Tuners get you that last bit of an edge.
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
linekin
Silver $$ Contributor
Lee, not sure this is the same thing but know many that use the slow/fast round method of tuning. Several of whom consistently finish near the top at each of the last several indoor IR Nationals. Admittedly I've never tried tuning this way, however, as having seen it so many times I know it works. I do not believe they are putting shots into a group as you say. I'm certain they're shooting in the same hole with this method.
I do not know if this is what PC is or Dr, Kolbe's article was about. I read it but to be honest I got really confused. LOL
Keith
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes, that's why I said help instead of totally correct for velocity deviations. The degree of velocity spread depends on the weight of tuner vs barrel design, etc to the extent which I have not seen sufficiently defined. Still a lot of art!
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Hi Keith, so you are saying these top shooters can randomly take any lot and shoot a group like these?
each group was shot with a single lot, what I am talking about as far as PC is that had I randomly took a single round from each lot and alternated each shot the groups would have been the same results. if they can do this, I am truly in awe I have come close and have shot 3-4 shot groups but something always causes a shot to just move out and not be one hole. maybe I still have hope?
Lee
Attachments
Does positive compensation alone explain how a tuner works?
The positive compensation theory or explanation of how a tuner works has it that the tuner causes slower bullets to exit the barrel higher in the upward movement of the vibration arc, and faster bullets at a lower point of movement. The result is, according to a strict PC explanation, bullets with faster and slower MVs will be able to have a very similar POI.
If this is how tuners work, it wouldn't be possible for the same tuner setting to be used at different distances. For example, it wouldn't be possible to shoot at both 50 and 100 with the same tuner setting.
Nevertheless, shooters do shoot at both distances without adjusting their tuners. Positve compensation alone wouldn't allow this.
The positive compensation theory or explanation of how a tuner works has it that the tuner causes slower bullets to exit the barrel higher in the upward movement of the vibration arc, and faster bullets at a lower point of movement. The result is, according to a strict PC explanation, bullets with faster and slower MVs will be able to have a very similar POI.
If this is how tuners work, it wouldn't be possible for the same tuner setting to be used at different distances. For example, it wouldn't be possible to shoot at both 50 and 100 with the same tuner setting.
Nevertheless, shooters do shoot at both distances without adjusting their tuners. Positve compensation alone wouldn't allow this.
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok I understand what you are saying now. perhaps I am misunderstanding what PC is about. again, my understanding is that PC would allow a rifle to shoot same POI as far as the vertical dispersion using any lot of ammo. here is an example notice the first 3 lots shoot nearly same as far as the vertical line; however, the next 4 lots are below the V line obvious this rifle is not PC tuned. if it was all shots should be on the same V line.
Lee
CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
I start where the last lot was at, then I go 1 full rotation (25 increments) either + or - and work back to the starting setting. If that doesn't work I go the other way and work back. I go in 6 increment jumps. There's a little more to it than this, but this is basically what I do. For me Eley in the 1056-1058 range is what I use.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Ballistically a different velocity will result in a deterministic poi change and you are looking for PC to exactly offset this, which is quite a challenge. We just hope to get close to this in order to achieve an improvement. This is not going to address differences between bullets in terms of weight, bc. Etc. Based on the mechanism of PC I also would not expect one setting to be the best for significantly different distances. But I'm just starting with a tuner and have a lot to learn. A lot of info on rimfire central.
linekin
Silver $$ Contributor
Hi Lee,
No, I am not saying they can take any lot. All I was saying is that they use the slow/fast round method when tuning. When the 2 intersect into 1 hole I guess they're done. I'm sure they confirm it & may even adjust a few clicks in either direction to fine tune. I don't know. All I know that thats how they do it & I've witnessed their results.
Happy New Year Lee!
Keith
I love shooting against Tuner twisters.
when it’s tuned, it’s tuned. It will shoot small with fast ammo or slow ammo. Not the same hole though, the faster will group in its own hole and the slower will group in its own hole. I move my scope for faster and slower ammo not the tuner. Mine is taped so it can’t be easily moved, on purpose by another shooter or on accident by me.
Like someone said earlier, you can’t make crap ammo shoot like good ammo by twisting the tuner. Not on a IR 50/50 or ARA Unlimited gun anyway.
when it’s tuned, it’s tuned. It will shoot small with fast ammo or slow ammo. Not the same hole though, the faster will group in its own hole and the slower will group in its own hole. I move my scope for faster and slower ammo not the tuner. Mine is taped so it can’t be easily moved, on purpose by another shooter or on accident by me.
Like someone said earlier, you can’t make crap ammo shoot like good ammo by twisting the tuner. Not on a IR 50/50 or ARA Unlimited gun anyway.
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