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218 Bee questions

jambrdly

Hello

Please allow me to introduce myself: 20-year military veteran (Russian translator). I currently reside in southwest MO. I've hunted in the UK and South Africa in addition to stateside. In my youth, I enjoyed shooting big-bore rifles but now that I'm 70, I find they push me around too much. I've recently purchased a Savage 23D in .32-20, a Winchester 43 in .218 Bee, a Sako Riihimaki and Brno Fox 2, both in .222, and a Savage 1920 in .250-3000. These will be my old-age guns.

I have just started reloading for these calibers and I'm finding that .22 caliber cartridges are a bit fiddly.

I am having trouble getting a decent amount of case mouth expansion prior to seating the bullet. I have tried Lee and RCBS dies - same problem. Any suggestions?

How does one ever know the optimal level of crimp to apply? Can over-crimping lead to dangerous pressure levels in small-bores?

Any favorite loads with Varget or H110?

Thanks

JCB
 
Get ya some expanding mandrels, done deal...
Why do you feel the need to crimp what you have ??
Unless it's in a gas gun there is no real need...
 
I've never had too tight of case necks with my Bee, and have a lot of cases that are so old that the necks have gotten too thin and are too loose to hold a bullet.

Maybe ya oughta mic your expander and see whatcha got for starters.

My Bee is also a M43, and I learned a long time ago to let the brass grow to fit comfortably in the chamber. If you over size you will start having a high rate of case seperations at the web. I let mine get a little tight. jd
 
Unless the Bee is a levergun, no need to crimp. If you are trimming the cases and chamfering, I find it odd that they will not seat a bullet. I've never flared any case...Hornet, 221, 222 etc, unless I was shooting a "fat" flat base lead bullet. Your die should not be undersizing , unless you have taken the stem off and are only sizing without the expander ball pulling back thru.

Revisit your technique...something not right.
 
jambrdly said:
Hello

Please allow me to introduce myself: 20-year military veteran (Russian translator). I currently reside in southwest MO. I've hunted in the UK and South Africa in addition to stateside. In my youth, I enjoyed shooting big-bore rifles but now that I'm 70, I find they push me around too much. I've recently purchased a Savage 23D in .32-20, a Winchester 43 in .218 Bee, a Sako Riihimaki and Brno Fox 2, both in .222, and a Savage 1920 in .250-3000. These will be my old-age guns.

I have just started reloading for these calibers and I'm finding that .22 caliber cartridges are a bit fiddly.

I am having trouble getting a decent amount of case mouth expansion prior to seating the bullet. I have tried Lee and RCBS dies - same problem. Any suggestions?

How does one ever know the optimal level of crimp to apply? Can over-crimping lead to dangerous pressure levels in small-bores?

Any favorite loads with Varget or H110?

Thanks

JCB
Click to expand...
Thank you for your service and welcome to the greatest gun forum on the web.
I have a couple .222 Riihimaki’s there extremely accurate and you shouldn’t have troubles seating bullets with it, I haven’t ever reloaded for a 218 I would think it wouldn’t be problematic either however a 22 Hornet you can easily crush the case if you don’t expand the mouth a little. I don’t crimp most bolt action rifle cartridges especially the little guys your loading for. Good luck and looking forward to your future posts
Wayne
 
Love the 218 bee.
I have a very old Winchester low wall single shot chambered in it. Its a pleasure to shoot. Accurate (see caveats below) with low report and minimal recoil.
A little powder goes a very long way with this little critter zapper. You can get 450-475 loads out of 1 lb of powder....but, due to is small size and limited powder capacity, it is super sensitive to any variation or inconsistency...finicky is an apt description.
You mentioned Varget. Great powder, but way too coarse and slow for this application. Save it for larger cartridges.
H110 will work and will work well. Its is a ball powder that will flow well and it easy to get into that dinky little case in a consistent manner.
I personally use AA1680. It too is a ball powder with similar flow characteristics as H110. 13.0-15.0 grs depending on bullet weight.
Bullets - check you twist rate. In my case, my twist rate is 1-14". So 40 grs and under work best for me. A 45 gr will work ok, but only the shorter RN or FP profiles seem to work for me. A 50 gr and up will keyhole.
I have settled on the 35 gr Hornday V-max. Its is an excellent bullet and very zippy with charges in the upper (but safe) range). But this bullet (and any sharp pointed spitzer style) may not be appropriate for a tube magazine rifle.
Primers matter...remember how small the powder charge is. In my experience, a "mild" primer is best.
Rem 6 1/2 SR fits the bill perfectly and is what I use exclusively for 218 bee. Others use small pistol for this cartridge with good results. Ditto for the hornet.
Cases - as mentioned. 218 cases are gold. Hard to find. Treat them accordingly and get maximum mileage out of them. Pay close attention to sizing. Don't overwork or squish them up excessively.
Since it is a such a small cartridge, consistent case prep maters. Trim and uniform cases. Flash hole deburring is worthwhile as well. A light chamfer is also essential too. If you are having neck tension issues and trouble seating, check expander as mentioned in other posts. A final pass with an separate mandrel or a lyman M-die may also help. The latter will also put a very small "bell" on case mouth, making flat base bullets easier to start and seat.
Crimping - I would avoid (as have others). But use in a tube magazine rifle might require it. If needed, I believe that a taper crimp is better than a traditional roll crimp. Lee makes a separate die for that.
 
Bluefink4895 said:
Love the 218 bee.
I have a very old Winchester low wall single shot chambered in it. Its a pleasure to shoot. Accurate (see caveats below) with low report and minimal recoil.
A little powder goes a very long way with this little critter zapper. You can get 450-475 loads out of 1 lb of powder....but, due to is small size and limited powder capacity, it is super sensitive to any variation or inconsistency...finicky is an apt description.
You mentioned Varget. Great powder, but way too coarse and slow for this application. Save it for larger cartridges.
H110 will work and will work well. Its is a ball powder that will flow well and it easy to get into that dinky little case in a consistent manner.
I personally use AA1680. It too is a ball powder with similar flow characteristics as H110. 13.0-15.0 grs depending on bullet weight.
Bullets - check you twist rate. In my case, my twist rate is 1-14". So 40 grs and under work best for me. A 45 gr will work ok, but only the shorter RN or FP profiles seem to work for me. A 50 gr and up will keyhole.
I have settled on the 35 gr Hornday V-max. Its is an excellent bullet and very zippy with charges in the upper (but safe) range). But this bullet (and any sharp pointed spitzer style) may not be appropriate for a tube magazine rifle.
Primers matter...remember how small the powder charge is. In my experience, a "mild" primer is best.
Rem 6 1/2 SR fits the bill perfectly and is what I use exclusively for 218 bee. Others use small pistol for this cartridge with good results. Ditto for the hornet.
Cases - as mentioned. 218 cases are gold. Hard to find. Treat them accordingly and get maximum mileage out of them. Pay close attention to sizing. Don't overwork or squish them up excessively.
Since it is a such a small cartridge, consistent case prep maters. Trim and uniform cases. Flash hole deburring is worthwhile as well. A light chamfer is also essential too. If you are having neck tension issues and trouble seating, check expander as mentioned in other posts. A final pass with an separate mandrel or a lyman M-die may also help. The latter will also put a very small "bell" on case mouth, making flat base bullets easier to start and seat.
Crimping - I would avoid (as have others). But use in a tube magazine rifle might require it. If needed, I believe that a taper crimp is better than a traditional roll crimp. Lee makes a separate die for that.
Click to expand...
Nice write up
Wayne
 
jambrdly said:
Hello

Please allow me to introduce myself: 20-year military veteran (Russian translator). I currently reside in southwest MO. I've hunted in the UK and South Africa in addition to stateside. In my youth, I enjoyed shooting big-bore rifles but now that I'm 70, I find they push me around too much. I've recently purchased a Savage 23D in .32-20, a Winchester 43 in .218 Bee, a Sako Riihimaki and Brno Fox 2, both in .222, and a Savage 1920 in .250-3000. These will be my old-age guns.

I have just started reloading for these calibers and I'm finding that .22 caliber cartridges are a bit fiddly.

I am having trouble getting a decent amount of case mouth expansion prior to seating the bullet. I have tried Lee and RCBS dies - same problem. Any suggestions?

How does one ever know the optimal level of crimp to apply? Can over-crimping lead to dangerous pressure levels in small-bores?

Any favorite loads with Varget or H110?

Thanks

JCB
Click to expand...
Stop crimping.
 
Thanks to everyone. Great input all around. I have some 45-gr loaded up now and will be heading up to Andy Dalton range sometime this week. I will try to post the results as soon as I have them.
 
I did have some powder troubles with the Bee. I have some old steel-can IMR 4198 that I got at a gun show. It was still sealed so I believe it should be good. The trouble is, it fills the case before it gets anywhere near a full charge. it's supposed to take 14-15 gr but 13 filled it up to the case mouth. That can't be right.

The H110 was listed by Hogdon as 8-9 gr. ( 9 gr seemed to fill the case about 1/2 way, or slightly less. I remember from my BPCR days that any air gap in the case is a bad thing, so ...

Are they safe as listed for both gun and shooter?

This may be a foolish question, but, is it possible to blow up a 218 Bee by mistake? Has anyone ever actually done it?
 
Yes you can blow up anything with a mistake. ALWAYS follow the books and load with no distractions.

I have a 43 in 218. Beautiful rifle and it will shoot 1/2" with IMR 4227 pushing a Sierra 40HP. No need or reason to crimp with the 43.

New or trimmed brass should always be chamfered, especially the thin ones like the 218. Hornady dies have a floating bullet guide which helps steer the bullet into the case mouth. I'm getting older as well and tend to like RCBS comp dies because the have a window in the side. You just drop the bullet through the window and the floating bullet guide will steer it the rest of the way.

Stick powders will settle into the case better if you drop the charge into a funnel resting on the case mouth. And for testing, tiny cases require tiny changes. 2 or 3 tenths can make a big difference, good or bad.

Best wishes and thank you for your service!
 
I can see where a person may want to crimp for a lever action, I'd try doing without first. With proper chamfering, a .219 button, I've had zero issues seating flatbase bullets in my Bee. Lever gun will certainly limit bullet choices for the Bee, I've run 50gr, 45gr and 40's in it so far, think I'll stick with 40's, but, also have lighter stuff to try one day. I can run this gun at 3200fps with a 40gr, not really sure what more I need out of it, if it's not too windy, good for 300yds on gophers for sure, shot yotes out there w/50gr as well. Mine is in a Stevens 044-1/2 with a 24" bbl, custom build. For my plinking gopher loads, I use AA1680 in it with the 40gr V-Max at present, it was L'il Gun that got the high velocities, but, L'il Gun spooks me a bit on it's inconsistencies from lot to lot, I get 2850 with the AA, good enough for me. I ran oven hardened 55gr cast in it for a while, need to make more boolits someday, used AA9 to run them, gaschecked, 2200fps with a lube mix of scraps I can't duplicate again, 3/4MOA, liked it a lot.
 
Lots of good info here for a guy who once shot a lot of 218's from a Marlin 1894CL, but I let it get away and now I'm starting over with a new triumvirate of guns; the first is a T/C Contender with a 16" barrel and a tight match chamber, the only rounds that will fire are factory loads, or those made from virgin brass (good luck finding that) or loads from virgin brass fired ONLY in that rifle/chamber, like I said it's pretty effing tight. I told the 'smith (Troy at Bullberry) that I wanted it tight but not neck-turning tight. He made it tight, the problem is my inability to find new brass because AFAIK Hornady hasn't made any since 2017, and that has long since dried up.

Gun number two is a 218 Bee in the Winchester Model 65 as reproduced by Miroku for Browning back in 1989. It was unfired when I got it. I fired five rounds and quickly decided I HAD to scope it, I'm 67 and half blind, so my gunsmith is making a scope base that will let me use a Scout Scope on it. More on that when I get it back, it should be finished any day now.

Gun number 3 became the Queen of the Safe the moment she arrived, a Cooper Model 38 in 218 Bee that arrived gently used from Texas with a nice 6x24x40 Bausch & Lomb scope already installed, I shot it an hour after I unpacked it and I wasn't disappointed, it's a solid 1/2" gun with ammo it likes.

Right now I have about 250 pieces of brass and/or loaded ammo, most of it with several firings on it. My plan right now is to shoot up everything I have loaded, process all the brass the same way, (trimming, chamfering, then sorting by weight/headstamp), and loading with a variety of bullets to see which gun likes what bullet.

Question time: Is it better to settle on a bullet first, a brand of brass, or a powder? I generally go with the brass that has the fewest firings, use a bullet that seems best suited to the barrel twist, then pick a powder. I'm fond of AA1680 but CFE-BLK is amazingly accurate in my 32-20's and has done well in the Bee in the past. I don't think between IMR-4227, CCCFE-BLK and AA-1680 there's a whole lot of difference, but it's not my opinion that matters, the guns need to inform me what's best.

What say you folks?
 
Last edited:
I built one on a Stevens 044-1/2, RKS 24" bbl. Only issue I've ever really had with it was data off Hodgdon site a few yrs back for L'il Gun, start load was a max speed load, with what I thought was the lot of L'il Gun I had. Then, a few mos later, found out they'd lowered the charges in the data. Got 3400 out of it with a 40gr V-Max before pressure showed up with the old data, got 3100 with the start load. Also ran some AA1680 at the time, max was 2800fps, no issues attaining that very comfortably. Played with 55gr Lyman cast bullets in it, AA9 loads, IMR 4759 and 4198. Also ran some 45gr Sierra and 50gr Nos Solid Base. I've always used WW brass, it has varying rim thickness issues from batch to batch, found out all about that, was using it in my Co-Ax and talking to Forster about it. It falls right in one of those holes on the universal jaws and rim heights, thinner was OK, tad sticky, thicker had to be pulled out of jaws. I use the RC for it instead now.
Never had any bullet seating issues regarding neck dia, with jacketed or cast w/gas checks.
 
Bullet choice is your biggest issue. I've had to 'flare' case mouths just a little bit with some bullets. There just isn't enough room as you bring up the case in the press to the die. And contrary to belief, those dies do not center the bullet as the case is raised. So, when I say flare, I mean very little. Only enough where you can carefully plop the bullet into the case neck. Once the bullet is in the case neck, it will center instead of destroying one side of it.
As far as 4198 is concerned, it' the best powder for that cartridge. H110 will work too. Just watch your pressures. That 23D doesn't like high pressures. I was able to get more powder into it, but ended up being less accurate.
 
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