20 practical questions

[Majday]

First I’ll say I’ve been reloading very basically for 20 years on a single stage rcbs. I clean, fl size, chamfer, deburr, load. Pretty basic. I may shoot a couple hundred centerfire rounds a year. I have general knowledge but not like many of you have.

I have a 20 p that has less than 200 rounds through it. It’s a hart barrel not sure on twist- I’d guess a 10 or 11 as t shoots 40vmax well. Ruger mk2 action. I size brass with Redding fl type s using .233 down to 226 and 223. I generally use a 1/4 turn more once the die contacts the shell holder.

I have two questions that may not answered with just a straight up do this or that.

1- when using the same LC92 brass going through the same steps to form I come across some brass that cycles perfect (non loaded) and some that gets stuck in the chamber and I have to punch it out. Is there a reason for this? I’ve tried turning the die down more to adjust for bumping the shoulder back more but that helps minimally. Ideally a 20 p doesn’t need to fire form to the barrel right? I get some slight vertical marks up the brass from sizing as well. I’ve had fired rounds that seem to cycle better after been fired once and other that don’t. I’m stumped.

2- I have some loaded rounds that shoot great. About 1/2in at 100. 25gr benchmark and 205m at coal of 2.260. Once a round goes into the chamber, I see marks on the bullet that seem to be contacting the rifling. I don’t believe this is normal. Would it be best to seat the bullet a little deeper? I haven’t had any problems with the accuracy and pressures are ok. Slight cratering on the primers but nothing to be alerted about I don’t believe. If there is any other info that may help let me know.


Thanks for any help
Jameson

 

[RegionRat]

Ideally a 20 p doesn’t need to fire form to the barrel right?

Not a guarantee in life...

Sometimes that chamber reamer, the virgin brass, and the dies you are using, all get along for a good first outing, but sometimes they don't. Your story is statistical since you mention some run perfect, but some do not.

Then the once fired brass can still be a different story. Unless you are getting 100% function, there is still a puzzle to solve.

The marks on the bullet indicate that magazine length rounds can touch the lands. As long as you are not struggling to extract a live round, this by itself isn't an issue. Your 2.260 COAL is something you can adjust a little to see if there is any benefit to performance at some point. You should go ahead and make a distance to lands measurement for each bullet you type you like to shoot. It should already be something you know, even though you are loading magazine length.

You will want to learn to very closely inspect all brass or rounds that give you any trouble. The difference is often very slight, so you will want to be very careful and detailed.

Measure the diameters at the neck-shoulder junction, the diameters at the body-shoulder junction, and at the 200 line. You will want these to 4 decimal points. While the priority of die setting means staying focused on the shoulder datum length, these diameters can also cause reliability issues.

If those diameters don't show margin by inspection, I would ink up a tight case to see/verify where the tight zone is and then consider a chamber casting. You mentioned you are already hard closing your sizing die, but I would verify it under load. Make sure that datum length is not the cause of the ones that won't feed smoothly first. If that isn't the issue, look harder at those diameters. Your chamber may end up requiring a small base or custom die.

You should always know your chamber neck length and diameter. Given this is a fairly well established Wildcat, you should not have to turn brass, but you may find that your neck-shoulder junction doesn't blend well for the first cycle. Make sure all your sized brass will pass a chamber check and stop to correct up front if they don't.

The photos are not the clearest, but except for a little cratering around the pin dent, the rest of the primer looks normal and I don't see any ejector imprints or swipes.

To keep from getting saturated, I would ask you to do just a few things up front. Gather your tools to be able to inspect your brass and loads. Chamber check all sized brass before loading and after bullet seating and stop to debug if they fail. Good Luck!

 

[Mark M.]

First I’ll say I’ve been reloading very basically for 20 years on a single stage rcbs. I clean, fl size, chamfer, deburr, load. Pretty basic. I may shoot a couple hundred centerfire rounds a year. I have general knowledge but not like many of you have.

I have a 20 p that has less than 200 rounds through it. It’s a hart barrel not sure on twist- I’d guess a 10 or 11 as t shoots 40vmax well. Ruger mk2 action. I size brass with Redding fl type s using .233 down to 226 and 223. I generally use a 1/4 turn more once the die contacts the shell holder.

I have two questions that may not answered with just a straight up do this or that.

1- when using the same LC92 brass going through the same steps to form I come across some brass that cycles perfect (non loaded) and some that gets stuck in the chamber and I have to punch it out. Is there a reason for this? I’ve tried turning the die down more to adjust for bumping the shoulder back more but that helps minimally. Ideally a 20 p doesn’t need to fire form to the barrel right? I get some slight vertical marks up the brass from sizing as well. I’ve had fired rounds that seem to cycle better after been fired once and other that don’t. I’m stumped.

2- I have some loaded rounds that shoot great. About 1/2in at 100. 25gr benchmark and 205m at coal of 2.260. Once a round goes into the chamber, I see marks on the bullet that seem to be contacting the rifling. I don’t believe this is normal. Would it be best to seat the bullet a little deeper? I haven’t had any problems with the accuracy and pressures are ok. Slight cratering on the primers but nothing to be alerted about I don’t believe. If there is any other info that may help let me know.


Thanks for any help
Jameson

I'll bet your bullets are seated to far out, jamming them into the lands causing a pressure problem

 

[Rick300]

There could be several things at play here.
1. If you have a standard .232 neck then you might have to turn the necks - they increase in thickness when you neck them down. Check your loaded round diameter at the neck.
2. Do you know the history of the brass? It's possible you might need a small base sizing die
3. It looks like rifling marks on the bullet so you are jamming into the rifling. Find your touch point and back off from there.
Good luck, it should be fairly easy to get it all worked out and then you will have a big smile. My 20P is boringly accurate.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Does a fired case chamber correctly without sizing? Will a bullet slip(light finger pressure) into a fired, unsized case? I use LC brass and the .226 bushing is my final, thought about trying a .225 but haven't had any bullet movement in my AR. I haven't tried 40 gr vmax. I shoot 40 gr Nosler BT coal 2.205. Not sure how much different the ogive length is. I use a decapping die and NO expander.

 

[Majday]

At RegionRat- thanks for the info and reply. So I went to measure a piece of brass that smoothly chambers and one that doesn’t using sharpie. I am not seeing any noticeable marks- which makes no sense. I feel that maybe at the base which does as the extractor pulls off the rim to extract the case for being too snug in the chamber. Measuring the base I find the measurement to be nearly identical for the two I can give measurements if that’d help. I did realize that chamber each sized case to make sure it chambers well is what I need to do to ensure no problems extracting while shooting/hunting. I may play with the seating depth as it is in the lands fairly well. I’ve noticed if the empty case isn’t feeding well then a loaded round is the same. I’m not sure what the 200 line is.
I again thank you for your time in helping me.
Jameson

Below is the extractor shaving off the rim tying to eject a problem case

 

[Majday]

I'll bet your bullets are seated to far out, jamming them into the lands causing a pressure problem

Thanks for the reply but I’m having problem cases just after fl sizing. I’ve found if I can chamber an empty just fine the loaded round follows suit as well.
Thanks
Jameson

 

[Majday]

There could be several things at play here.
1. If you have a standard .232 neck then you might have to turn the necks - they increase in thickness when you neck them down. Check your loaded round diameter at the neck.
2. Do you know the history of the brass? It's possible you might need a small base sizing die
3. It looks like rifling marks on the bullet so you are jamming into the rifling. Find your touch point and back off from there.
Good luck, it should be fairly easy to get it all worked out and then you will have a big smile. My 20P is boringly accurate.

There could be several things at play here.
1. If you have a standard .232 neck then you might have to turn the necks - they increase in thickness when you neck them down. Check your loaded round diameter at the neck.
2. Do you know the history of the brass? It's possible you might need a small base sizing die
3. It looks like rifling marks on the bullet so you are jamming into the rifling. Find your touch point and back off from there.
Good luck, it should be fairly easy to get it all worked out and then you will have a big smile. My 20P is boringly accurate.

Thanks for the help- I measured sized and loaded round and the sized is .227 for both problem and good cases while the loaded is .230 or so.

2-Yes I purchased these as chemically inert pulled military brass in the late 90s. Never been fired but by me. They may have had 1-2 firings in a previous 223 I owned. I do still have some Virgin same year brass with the inert primers still in them I could try to play around with and see if I get the same results from all of them.

3- I believe I need to play with the depth as I now realize I’m too far and jamming. I haven’t fired a ton of rounds in the rifle as I’ve had problems with brass sizing and had things going on the past few years. Now I’m trying to tackle it as I do enjoy shooting it.

Thank you yes it has shot very well, I look forward to doing a lot more when I can figure these issues out. I really appreciate all the help.
Jameson

 

[RegionRat]

I’m not sure what the 200 line is.

If you study SAAMI standards, most but not all will have a reference diameter shown on the drawing at a height that is 0.200" above the base, thus we call it the 200 line.

In your example, the 200 line should be 0.3759"


Check that 0.3542" diameter at the shoulder when you have a micrometer handy as well. It takes less than 0.001" to have a problem with these diameters. Good Luck!

 

[Majday]

Does a fired case chamber correctly without sizing? Will a bullet slip(light finger pressure) into a fired, unsized case? I use LC brass and the .226 bushing is my final, thought about trying a .225 but haven't had any bullet movement in my AR. I haven't tried 40 gr vmax. I shoot 40 gr Nosler BT coal 2.205. Not sure how much different the ogive length is. I use a decapping die and NO expander.

It depends sometimes I have had perfect chambering and other times no. I don’t get it. I will pay closer attention and make it a priority to shoot a few soon as I’m giving the gun more attention to resolve the issues I’m having- or at least try to.
No the neck after firing is .233. Only expands by .003. I am using a 223 bushing as I had issues with my 226 holding the bullets tight enough and wanted to make sure I got a bushing that would definitely hold the bullet in place. It would be ideal to have a 225 and 224 but it is what I have currently.
I will play with depth but it doesn’t seem to me to be a bullet issue as chambering unprimed sized cases can be difficult and become stuck in the barrel. That is something I haven’t though of. I may try decapping and then sizing without the expander. Maybe the 226 would be better doing that and maybe in a weird way resolve the issues? Can’t hurt to try.
Jameson

 

[RegionRat]

By chance, do you have a regular FL 223 sizing die or can you borrow one?
Then also...
By chance, do you have access to a 223 Small Base die or can you borrow one?

If so, take one of the problem samples and run through that regular 223 FL die with the die adjusted for the same shoulder bump, then follow up with another bump where the die is fully seated on the shell holder.

The same drill with the Small Base Die. Those will at least verify that your bushing die is the issue.

Don't fear, since a body die can solve the problem if this was the cause. Some dies just don't jive with a chamber or the brass and the answer is a better combination of dimensions from a different die.

 

[Majday]

If you study SAAMI standards, most but not all will have a reference diameter shown on the drawing at a height that is 0.200" above the base, thus we call it the 200 line.

In your example, the 200 line should be 0.3759"

View attachment 1332715
Check that 0.3542" diameter at the shoulder when you have a micrometer handy as well. It takes less than 0.001" to have a problem with these diameters. Good Luck!

Just checked the 200 line and just under .375 for both cases and the shoulder junction was roughly .354-.3543 I’d say it’s a close area there. Both measure the same there as well. I may need to get a micrometer that reads one more place as mine just goes 3 decimal places. As you’ve said I may need to just continue measure the direerenced around the entire case to find the difference because there has to be something different causing the issues....right?

 

[RegionRat]

Unfortunately dies only strongly adjust in length, and are much weaker in diameter.
To really swing in diameter, you are forced to either push your die all the way to the shell holder, or try a different die.

Till you have one of those other dies to try, use your chamber check and put the ones that fail to the side.

 

[Majday]

By chance, do you have a regular FL 223 sizing die or can you borrow one?
Then also...
By chance, do you have access to a 223 Small Base die or can you borrow one?

If so, take one of the problem samples and run through that regular 223 FL die with the die adjusted for the same shoulder bump, then follow up with another bump where the die is fully seated on the shell holder.

The same drill with the Small Base Die. Those will at least verify that your bushing die is the issue.

Don't fear, since a body die can solve the problem if this was the cause. Some dies just don't jive with a chamber or the brass and the answer is a better combination of dimensions from a different die.

I have an rcbs 223 fl die and I’m sure I can find a small base one- I have thought of getting one and probably will at some point. I’ll look into doing that. This is probably a stupid question but in running the case through a fl die, so I need to removed the guts to just get shoulder bump? Leaving the neck sized to see if that solves the issue? There’s definitely a science to reloading and many different variables. Thank you for taking the time to help out.

 

[Majday]

Unfortunately dies only strongly adjust in length, and are much weaker in diameter.
To really swing in diameter, you are forced to either push your die all the way to the shell holder, or try a different die.

Till you have one of those other dies to try, use your chamber check and put the ones that fail to the side.

That makes sense. I will have to try a different die and see if that makes a difference. I hope it does so I can move forward to better/easier issues with this gun. I will do that, I’ve been doing that on the cases I’ve found that don’t chamber. Use what work and try to figure out the others.

 

[L.Sherm]

Unless I missed it are you measuring your shoulder bump with a comparator? because if you aren't it could be as simple as screwing your die down farther to get .003 bump and better sizing at the base and shoulder. Without a comparator its just guessing. Either you haven't got your die set up correctly or its no sizing properly is my guess by your measurements.
If Your your loaded rounds are .230 that is a little tight IMHO for a .232 nk.
I would not go any smaller than a .226 probably. 227 or even .228 loaded nk dia.
depending on which shot the best on your sized brass if loaded round nk is .230
Let us know how things work out.

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

Sounds like you are forcing the case in to the chamber way too hard if the extractor is deforming the rims. With a fired case in the shell holder in the upmost position. Look for light between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. Just because the die hits the shell holder with no case does not mean it is still in contact with a case being resized when all the slack is removed. If a gap then use a feeler guage to measure this gap and turn the die down a little at a time to remove the gap. If memory is correct, 1/8 turn on the die is equal to approx .009.

Frank

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

20p brass can be checked in a 223 ammo/case checking gage. Easy way to check the base diameter, invert the brass should slide in the ammo checker past .020. I full length size in a 223 RCBS standard FL, then I neck size with the Redding neck bushing die with 226 bush. This is for any brass fired in my 20p AR no expander in either one. This method will not work for forming from used or new 223/556 brass. If your brass fired in the 20p barrel will chamber/extract properly without sizing and a bullet will finger push into the neck, sizing die adjustment is the problem.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

My fired brass necks 0.232-.233 so you chamber neck should be fine.

 

[Majday]

After experimenting and checking on various things I’ve been told I decided to try the obvious (to me) which was use a 223 fl die and take out the decapping/expander and just size the brass. It worked! All the problem brass now flows smoothly into chamber/extraction. Needless to say I will now be using the type s to get the necks to where they need to be. I will go back to trying out the 226 bushing as it sounds like my necks are too tight. With that I will adjust seating depth to bot be jammed in the lands and find another accurate depth which I think will come quickly. Thank you all again for the help and sharing your knowledge to help solve this issue.
Tha ks
Jameson