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20 Beggs

Mike6158

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I've been working up a load for my 20 Beggs. When I ordered it I selected a 1:9 twist Hart barrel. I should've done more research I guess because I read that 55 gr. Bergers need a faster rate of twist if I'm going to shoot them at 1000 yards. So far, I'm not having much trouble with them but I've only shot out to 200 yards. I was wondering if someone here could tell me how far out to expect the bullet to destabilize.


All tests were done at 200 yards


Rifle built by Defensive Edge


Hart Barrel

Batt Action
Jewell trigger
HS Precision stock
Nightforce optics


Load
[SIZE=78%]Lapua brass[/SIZE]
25.0 grains of Viht N133
CCI450 small rifle magnum primers
55 Grain Berger


Here's the powder test target. There were 5 groups total. This was the 4th and 5th group. The best group was sub 1/4 minute. Seating was in the lands by about .003. I didn't intend to start that way but that's what it was.


p828833649-4.jpg



The next test was for seating depth. 5 groups each starting on the lands and increasing in .005 increments to .045 off the lands. The group at .035 is about 3/8 minute. I have 30 loaded at .035 and I'm going to shoot at 300 once the flood water at the range recedes. I only have a cell phone image of the best group from this test


p1030022517-4.jpg
 
Berger lists the 55gn HPBT as 0.915" OAL. Running it through the Miller Twist Rule Excel calculator, a 9-inch twist rate at 2,800 fps shows it as barely stabilised.

Don Miller's Twist Rule


Caliber 0.204 Inches
Bullet Weight 55 Grains
Bullet Length 0.915 Inches
Barrel Twist 9 Inches/turn
muzzle velocity 2800 fps
Temperature 59 degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)
Pressure 29.92 inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)

Sg = 1.05

Sg shouldn't be less than 1.4. If Sg is greater than about 2.0, you may
gain some accuracy by going to a slower twist barrel.



The recommended 8-inch twist rate gives an Sg (stability coefficient) value of 1.33 (which is also below the 1.4 recommended minimum result).

Anything above 1.0 is theoretically stabilised, but a safety margin is required for several very good reasons, hence the recommendation of 1.4 as a minimum value.

However, four other factors need to be taken into account:

1) Ambient conditions and the firing locale's elevation above sea level. Low atmospheric pressure conditions and high air temperatures see a lower rate of spin required. The higher you are above sea level, the lower the air pressure you shoot in for any given conditions. The 1.05 value above is for 'standard ballistic conditions', ie 59-deg F and 29.92 inches mercury pressure. The Sg drops to below 1.0 at freezing point on a high pressure winter's day, but improves to nearly the recommended 1.4 if you were to use this combination at Raton (7,000 ft ASL) on a 90-deg summer day.

2) Accuracy of the quoted twist rate. This applies mostly to factory rifles with mass produced hammer forged barrels where the actual and nominal rifling twist rates may diverge either way. Hence marginal stabilisation situations sometimes work out fine or not at all in these rifles. Some custom barrel makers such as Bartlein have a reputation for producing twist rates that are precisely what it says on the blank. Hart? No knowledge, but it may be worth doing a twist rate check with a cleaning rod and tight patch. If you're lucky, it may have been made with a slightly 'faster' twist than the nominal 1-9".

3) Stabilisation requirements are determined by the interrelationship of calibre, bullet length, bullet weight, bullet velocity. The main factor is the bullet's length in calibres rather the commonly quoted weight brackets. A long thin light bullet needs a lot more stabilisation (faster rate of spin imparted by the rifling) than a short fat heavy model. However, OTM or HP varmint type bullets often have a considerable airspace between the top of the core and the bullet jacket tip. As a result, the Miller and similar stabilisation programs may overestimate the degree of stabilisation and hence speed of twist rate needed. Not by huge amounts, but in a case like yours, maybe just enough to 'get away with it'.

Michael Courtney has done a lot of valuable work on this.

See:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3834705.0


4) and finally .... another bit of great Michael J Courtney research that looked at the real world effects of marginal bullet stabilisation. He and his daughter used the .222 Rem loaded over a large range of MVs to change the Sg value and see if it affected the BC through measuring how much velocity the bullet lost using two chronographs, one each at muzzle and target. The results showed a substantial decrease in actual BC if the Sg value fell below 1.26 for the 52gn OTM bullet used in the tests - a very substantial BC reduction. This ties in with Sierra Bullets' comments that over decades of bullet testing to ascertain BCs at different velocities, that its technicians had also seen very marked spin-rate to effective BC links on occasions.

So, even if your bullets are apparently stabilised in this marginal twist rate, it's possible that the Berger quoted G7 BC of 0.195 won't actually be on offer in this set-up and that this will affect 1,000 yard ballistics adversely.

The upshot of all this is that the only way you'll know whether the combination actually works at long ranges and how well, is to go shoot it! The other thing that you may find is a lack of consistency, that is it works out fine one day but performs poorly on another; that it works on hot summer days, but not cold winter ones ......... and so on and suchlike! This is common in marginal stabilisation situations.

I hope it works out fine for you - good luck!
 
Wow, thanks!


I'll have to digest this. Muzzle velocity is in the range of 3,800 fps.


The challenge for me is finding 1000 yards to shoot. The range I use max's out at 300. I have a black powder range that has 1000 yards. He might let me shoot the .20 there. I shot my .338 Edge there and nearly "poked a hole" in his 800 yard steel plate. The owner wasn't very happy about that. I warned him beforehand so maybe he'll let me come play with my own targets.
 
I plan to run them through the chronograph once I'm settled on a load. I used my ballistics calculator to back in to velocity. I did the same with my .338 Edge and it was dead on. Of course there's a lot of difference in the two rifles so maybe my estimate is calc is off. Basically I zero at 100, move to 300 and shoot a group without touching the scope, measure how much drop, adjust velocity in the calculator until the drop it comes up with = the actual drop. I can make first round hits at. 800 with my .338 using this method. Of course I backed if up with a chronograph. ES is around 10 with that rifle.

Checking the Bullet Flight program I'm seeing 3650 not 3800. I'm about to shoot 2 groups of 5 at 300 and then move to 100. We'll see how it calcs out. I haven't had the rifle long. I
 
I doubt you see 3500fps with the Beggs. It has a reduced case capacity compared to the BR and even the PPC. I wouldn't be surprised it 3400 was absolute max without losing cases.

Adam
 
ab_bentley said:
I doubt you see 3500fps with the Beggs. It has a reduced case capacity compared to the BR and even the PPC. I wouldn't be surprised it 3400 was absolute max without losing cases.

Adam


That actually makes me feel better. Somewhere out there on the internet I read a post about someone getting 4200 fps in a 20 Beggs using N133 so when I plugged their numbers int the ballistic calculator and that was obviously wrong I was a tad confused. I'll know what it really is here in just a bit. I had some issues with coming up with a backed in number for the 20. There was lot of humidity today and the mirage made it interesting to get somewhat consistent grouping at 300. Just for fun, I'll put my estimated number from my test here: 3,450 fps but I'd say this is a plus or minus 100 fps number knowing that 100 fps is a nice safe "range" but crap for shooting. It'll be interesting to see how the chronograph compares to the estimate and this way I can't cheat :)


On another note- I did a "how many shots before I lose accuracy test" whereby I clean the rifle, shoot 5, let it cool, shoot 5 at another location on the target. The second group of 5 were much tighter than the 1st group. Like 4 shots inside 3/4" x 1/2" and one flier over an 1-1/2" away. The first (clean barrel) group was a box about 2" x 3/4". I was surprised the clean barrel did so poorly.
 
Ok, I managed to get 3 rounds through the Chrony


3,346
3,341
3,376


ES = 35


I don't have power where i shoot so I'm going to have to rig a battery for the chronograph and shoot more than a couple to see what the actual ES is.


My backed in number was about 75 - 100 fps high. BUT... when I used 100 and 300 yards to back in to the velocity I was at 3,350 fps. When I tried to make it "fit" 200 yards too I raised the velocity to 3,450 fps as a compromise. Oh well... at least now I know what the real value is.


I found the notes from the gunsmith for when he developed the initial load. He's in Coeur d'Alene, ID so there's a good bit of elevation difference between here and there.


Bullet - 32gr CT Ballistic Silver Tip
Primer - CCI BR4
Powder H335


24.5 gr 3,537 fps

25.0 gr 3,594 fps

25.5 gr 3,649 fps

26.0 gr 3,715 fps

26.5 gr 3,779 fps

27.0 gr 3,875 fps

27.5 gr 3,965 fps

28.0 gr 4,022 fps Swipe mark - Too Hot!

28.5 gr 4,152 fps Big Velocity and Pressure Jump!


ES- 93 fps. Terrible. Must fix this in future load development
Test group: 5 rounds @100 yards .181" tall x .046" wide. if the ES can be lowered to 10-15 fps this will probably shoot in the 0's. Not bad for a walking varmint rifle!


I also found the web loads


25.2gr of N133 40 gr. Berger 4,100 fps
26.0 gr N133 35 gr Berger 4,350 fps


Thanks everyone for your help
 
Personally I've never seen this before. I've only been reloading for about 15 years, maybe 20, so I don't have a big experience base


The top group is from a clean barrel. I mean I probably used 10 wet patches and a half dozen dry patches. When I was done there was pretty much nothing on the last patch.


I shot 5, the wind had laid down so this isn't wind related. I waited about 10 minutes then shot the lower group. There is one flier. I knew it was going to be bad. I've got a very light trigger and I touched the round off before I was ready. 4 shots at 300 inside of 3/8" x 1/2" is pretty not bad but why is it great after 5 rounds? I'm more used to shooting one fouling round and the rifle settling down. Maybe it's just how it is


p591579809-4.jpg
 
Mike6158 said:
Wow, thanks!


I'll have to digest this. Muzzle velocity is in the range of 3,800 fps.


The challenge for me is finding 1000 yards to shoot. The range I use max's out at 300. I have a black powder range that has 1000 yards. He might let me shoot the .20 there. I shot my .338 Edge there and nearly "poked a hole" in his 800 yard steel plate. The owner wasn't very happy about that. I warned him beforehand so maybe he'll let me come play with my own targets.

You shouldn't have an issue. I shoot a 20-250 with the 55s going 3600 fps and a 9 twist. Worked to 1022 yards this year just fine.
 
Mike, I have a 20-Beggs and have posted on here a load shot at 4200 ft. per with a 35grain Berger with 25.5gr. of LT-32, shot in the threes and really wrecks prarie dogs.
Mack
 
mackr said:
Mike, I have a 20-Beggs and have posted on here a load shot at 4200 ft. per with a 35grain Berger with 25.5gr. of LT-32, shot in the threes and really wrecks prarie dogs.
Mack


Thanks Mack,


Sorry for the long delay. I got swamped at work. I'm going to work on loads with the lighter pills this winter (I hope). I started with the 55's since that is as heavy as I'll be likely to go
 
Good deal. I wasn't getting the velocity that I thought I was. Closer to 3400 than 3600...

xswanted said:
You shouldn't have an issue. I shoot a 20-250 with the 55s going 3600 fps and a 9 twist. Worked to 1022 yards this year just fine.
 
Old thread resurrection! Wanna know more on the 20 Beggs. I've got a 8.5 twist PacNor barrel ready to chamber! Can't decide between beggs & 20-250. Walking varmint rifle/mainly coyotes. Want to shoot 55 bergers. Donor Rem 700 action was a 22-250. Any and all advice/comments appreciated
 
Old thread resurrection! Wanna know more on the 20 Beggs. I've got a 8.5 twist PacNor barrel ready to chamber! Can't decide between beggs & 20-250. Walking varmint rifle/mainly coyotes. Want to shoot 55 bergers. Donor Rem 700 action was a 22-250. Any and all advice/comments appreciated
What is a 20 BEGGS made from ?
 
You can check those cartridges out pretty thoroughly over at Saubier, or google it and you will find several pics comparing the cartridges. My understanding of the Beggs cartridges is that he just necks the 220 Russian case to the caliber he's interested in and goes with that and doesn't bother with forming the PPC. I may be wrong about that last sentence if I am feel free to correct me.
 
The .220 Russian has a .120 radius at the neck shoulder junction. To improve brass flow issues, the Beggs design reduced that to .060. That is the difference, other than neck diameter.
 

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