2 Lug vs. 3 lug? What are the hidden differences?

[colder]

Very curious as why most used 2 lug .22 RF actions are preferred? Is it because of old school action lockup feel or something else? Thanks in advance for your responses.
Todd

 

[1Merlin]

3 Lug to withstand the horrific forces generated by the savage .22 rimfire round.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Who makes an any lug rimfire action? Thought they locked up on the bolt handle. But I ain’t seen everything.

Whoa. I’m sheltered. Whoops. I see now.

 

[Tim Slater]

Who makes an any lug rimfire action? Thought they locked up on the bolt handle. But I ain’t seen everything.

Most production target rifles have a second lug, opposite (or nearly opposite) the handle: Winchester 52. Turbo, Anschutz 54, Walther KK/KK200/KK300, Unique, Diana 820, Feinwekbau 2000-2700, Haemmerli 503/504, Remington 37. Walther's KK500 and some of the Soviet era rifles have two additional lugs (or additional rows) in the handle, or in an extended handle section.

Doesn't the Remington 40x, and any derivatives, have separate lugs in the middle?

Bleiker. Grunig, and Feinwerkbau 2800 have multiple front lugs. Although these are part of a sleeve with the handle, the handle isn't a locking surface AFAIK.

The Finnish Lion and some of the early Haemmerlis are among the few first class single lug bolts.

 

[colder]

My
Lonestar has 2 center lugs

 

[Dannybcc]

I think a lot of its personnel preference. I started with a 2 lug (2500X) and tried a 3 lug (Trident). I was used to the 2 lug and felt more comfortable with that. My shooting buddy shot a Trident and has no issues with it.

 

[68Hoyt]

The Remington 580/1/2 , 540x/xr , 541s/t/x all had 6 lugs

But , your question , two lug 90 degree throw and easy , three lug is usually 60 degree and not quite as easy and more prone to disturb your shooting position

 

[kevin nevius]

Bolt handle clearance can also be an issue (if you use it for prone or other disciplines that require switching to iron sights).

The 60 degree handle swing clears everything well.

 

[colder]

Thanks all, that answers a lot of my questions.
TP

 

[foxguy]

2 lug vs 3 Lug, My understanding is that the 3-Lug is a little bit stiffer to open / close the bolt and may torque the rifle stock sitting in its rest for those who are competitive shooting. 2500X vs the Trident actions.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

All else equal, bolt lift is a bit heavier on a 3 lug. It's simply doing the same "work" over a shorter distance. There are small things that can help but the aforementioned cause is physics.

 

[TRSR8]

The “theory” as far as function , is the 3 lugs avoid bolt jack on firing, real or perceived.
I have both 2 & 3 for no particular reason. As stated, bit heavier lift, 60deg but ultimately, nobody has ever conclusively proven one better than the other.

 

[colder]

Again, thank you!
TP

 

[PWNolan]

The Remington 580/1/2 , 540x/xr , 541s/t/x all had 6 lugs

But , your question , two lug 90 degree throw and easy , three lug is usually 60 degree and not quite as easy and more prone to disturb your shooting position

With the Remington 580/540 series rifles it's very rare that all six lugs are actually engaging. One of the things Brian Voelker does when his accuracy overhaul is to lap the lugs. I believe he only does the back 3 lugs. At least that's all he did on my 541-X

And you (and the others) are correct about the 2 lug/90 degree and 3 lug/60 degree. Except the 3 lug 60 degree isn't always more difficult to operate than a 90 degree throw bolt. I have a 10 X3L (3 lug) that's as smooth and easy to operate as my 2500X. It might even be easier to operate. They're both nice. That said, I'm pretty sure someone had some extra work done to the 10X but don't know for sure. I know another guy with a X3L and he said my bolt was much easier to operate than his. The springs make a big difference too. So that might explain the difference between ours I don't know

Someone asked who makes a 3 lug. The Trident has been mentioned. If I'm not mistaken, the DiOrio Turbo V2 is a 3 lug 45 degree throw and the V3 is a 3 lug 60 degree throw.

 

[BowChamp]

With the Remington 580/540 series rifles it's very rare that all six lugs are actually engaging. One of the things Brian Voelker does when his accuracy overhaul is to lap the lugs. I believe he only does the back 3 lugs. At least that's all he did on my 541-X

And you (and the others) are correct about the 2 lug/90 degree and 3 lug/60 degree. Except the 3 lug 60 degree isn't always more difficult to operate than a 90 degree throw bolt. I have a 10 X3L (3 lug) that's as smooth and easy to operate as my 2500X. It might even be easier to operate. They're both nice. That said, I'm pretty sure someone had some extra work done to the 10X but don't know for sure. I know another guy with a X3L and he said my bolt was much easier to operate than his. The springs make a big difference too. So that might explain the difference between ours I don't know

Someone asked who makes a 3 lug. The Trident has been mentioned. If I'm not mistaken, the DiOrio Turbo V2 is a 3 lug 45 degree throw and the V3 is a 3 lug 60 degree throw.

The Vudoo V22S is a 3 lug 60 degree lift also.

 

[Tim Slater]

Someone asked who makes a 3 lug. The Trident has been mentioned. If I'm not mistaken, the DiOrio Turbo V2 is a 3 lug 45 degree throw and the V3 is a 3 lug 60 degree throw.

Pat,

In the ISSF/smallbore world Gruenig & Elmiger and Walther have had fair success with the Racer series and KK500, both built around a 3-lug 60° bolt. Rieder & Lenz, a Swiss company, make another, although it's not so common.

I'd add that, outside of the USSR, a two-lug 60° bolt was utterly dominant* in ISSF/smallbore for decades until the Racer and KK500 came onto the market. @kevin nevius gave an excellent and succinct explanation of the advantage of a 60° throw in smallbore.

 

[Tony K Harper]

Let me throw one more fact into the mix. On actions with Rem 700 style triggers (angled sear) there is an upward pressure on the bolt when in the cocked position.

When the trigger is pulled that pressure unloads causing a rocking effect on a two-lug bolt. With a three lug that rocking action is reduced significantly.

That is the mechanical difference.

Actions with 90-degree trigger sears do not have this upward pressure.

Truth is one of the hardest parts of setting up an action is to get even pressure on the lugs. Pretty easy with a two lug, not so easy on a three or more lug.

Lapping the lugs introduces its own problems. If you try doing it by putting compound on the lugs and working the action you will take more off the front of the lugs than the back. Leaving them in a cone shape causing loss of contact with the seat in the rear.

You have to be very careful not to overdo it.

The best way is to set the action up on a spindle and cut the seats to ensure they match the bolt lugs. Not easy, or a lot of fun.

As has already been said, no one has definitively proven that a three lug is more accurate than a two lug.

But then again how many three lugs have been set up correctly?

TKH

 

[TRSR8]

Thanks Tony. All this talk about actions somewhat muddies the water in regard to to primary truths.
First, as long as somebody has not screwed them up, they all work acceptably, 2/3/ 2500X/10X.
Second, bottom line, in the big picture, it’s all about barrels. You get the absolute best barrel, I don’t care what you put it on, you’re ahead of the game.

 

[PWNolan]

Pat,

In the ISSF/smallbore world Gruenig & Elmiger and Walther have had fair success with the Racer series and KK500, both built around a 3-lug 60° bolt. Rieder & Lenz, a Swiss company, make another, although it's not so common.

I'd add that, outside of the USSR, a two-lug 60° bolt was utterly dominant* in ISSF/smallbore for decades until the Racer and KK500 came onto the market. @kevin nevius gave an excellent and succinct explanation of the advantage of a 60° throw in smallbore.

Tim, yes sorry, I have rimfire benchrest on the brain these days. Thanks for pointing out that these other very capable actions

 

[VLNBYR]

Set up correctly or just as they came out of the box the world is still waiting for the genius who can show that there is any difference in ignition.