190SMK vs 175SMK at 1000 yards?

[rap36case]

Just bought 500 190SMK moly to try at 1000 yards. I've been shooting 175SMK due to all the data available. I am wondering why there is not as much interest in 190SMK? It has been around since the 60s and performs well from all reports. Also wondering why the military went with 175 SMK over 190.

Right now I am shooting 175SMK moly with WW brass (preped to the hilt), BR2, 43.3 of 4064 with 0.015 jump. I understand 190SMK shoots will with 42 of 4064 and I will plan my Audette experiments with that as a starting point.

 

[chuckbuster243]

I shoot 175's 190's and 185 bergers. I shoot the 175 and 190 for fun and club matches. For all accounts they shoot about the same for acuracy and elevation for me with my loads in my 308. I mainly use noslers version. There is nothing wrong with these bullets but as was said earlier the berger the 185's will blow the doors of the others in most accounts. But at a higher cost so I reserve those for more critical matches. Shoot what you can get with the components you have. They will all do well with a good driver. Matt

 

[rap36case]

Thank you for responding.

I am aware of the VLD BCs. I wonder about the required muzzel velocity to achieve 0.569 BC. Berger does not seem to like moly anymore. Also they tend to be a little finiky on jump.

My original question was 190SMK vs 175SMK? Why did the military go with 175SMK?

 

[XTR]

Thank you for responding.

I am aware of the VLD BCs. I wonder about the required muzzel velocity to achieve 0.569 BC. Berger does not seem to like moly anymore. Also they tend to be a little finiky on jump.

My original question was 190SMK vs 175SMK? Why did the military go with 175SMK?

The Berger 185 LRBT/Juggernaut/OTM is NOT a VLD design. It is super easy to load and "tune" if you will. I can't tell much difference between 0.010 and .050 off the lands. It just shoots, and the BC will save you something like about 4 MOA on elevation and a bunch of wind out to 1000 yards compared to the 175SMK.

 

[CatShooter]

My original question was 190SMK vs 175SMK? Why did the military go with 175SMK?

Because the 175 SMK was designed to be a ballistic replacement for the Lake City 172 ball... and the 175 will shoot well in the thousands of 12" twist rifles in the military.

Plus, there were thousands of Marine corps Unertl 10x sniper scopes, and thousands of Army Leupold Mk4-M3 sniper scopes, all cammed for the ballistics of the 172 ball, and therefore, the 175 SMK.

So they didn't have to start from scratch, they just loaded the 175 and all of their manuals and scope come ups were still valid.

 

[chkunz]

Also the 190s were thought to be too hard on the M14 gas system but some of the good military shooters shot them in the government M14.

 

[r bose]

To try to answer your question, I always thought the 190's were THE bullet when the AMU was shooting the 300 win mag long range (bolt guns). I didn't think 190's were used in the gas guns (m1a, m14, m1 garand) because they were very hard on the OP rods. A few shooters modified the gas plugs to shoot heavier bullets but this was not a common practice.

I love the 190's in a 308. Bought a 1000 count box of Noslers for half the price of Bergers, and with the right powder you can get some very respectable velocity. Yes they are 30 BC points less than the 185 Juggernauts but I've shot some of my best groups with the Noslers. They will take a little more wind adjustment but once you are use to making proper adjustments, they shoot very well.

 

[rap36case]

Thank you all for your explanations. It makes sense to me now, considering magazine length, training changes and cycling of gas guns. I am guessing individual snipers worked up their own loads in the field.

On paper the mass and BCs from 168 Berger, 175, 185, 190 all perform well. Wind is a consideration for heavier bullets and terminal velocity is improved with higher BC. I have read many pet loads using IMR 4064 and Varget. I will try tayloring the 190 load to perform better than the 175 load I have now.

If I can find moly coated Berger, I may try some. I like moly at the moment and so does the CZ550 I have. I clean the weapon like I always have, even if I get clean patches.

 

[chkunz]

To try to answer your question, I always thought the 190's were THE bullet when the AMU was shooting the 300 win mag long range (bolt guns). I didn't think 190's were used in the gas guns (m1a, m14, m1 garand) because they were very hard on the OP rods. A few shooters modified the gas plugs to shoot heavier bullets but this was not a common practice.

I love the 190's in a 308. Bought a 1000 count box of Noslers for half the price of Bergers, and with the right powder you can get some very respectable velocity. Yes they are 30 BC points less than the 185 Juggernauts but I've shot some of my best groups with the Noslers. They will take a little more wind adjustment but once you are use to making proper adjustments, they shoot very well.

In reference to my comment about some of the military shooters shooting the 190s in the M14 I was not talking about the AMU and I can not say if they did or not but I personally knew some military shooters who were shooting government M14s and shot them and they did very well with them and told me they never experienced any damage to the gun but I was not willing to take a chance and shoot them in my M1A.

 

[CatShooter]

I am guessing individual snipers worked up their own loads in the field.

Snipers are not handloaders, and do not work up loads in the field.

They shoot an issued load, and all shoot the same load, M-118-LR. Think of the chaos it would create in enemy country if they all shot different loads.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

If I can find moly coated Berger, I may try some. I like moly at the moment and so does the CZ550 I have. I clean the weapon like I always have, even if I get clean patches.

Buy naked Bergers and then moly coat them yourself. It's very easy to do.

 

[rap36case]

Thanks for the advice,

I may get into coating later. I know it is not all that easy to get a consistently even coat, according to "Handloading for Competition".

War is Hell, therefore chaotic. I don't think it is outside the realm of unit specifications to have an armorer make bullets, but what do I know. According to "The Ultimate Sniper" there is diversity in what is taken to the field in 308Win, 338, 408 and 50BMG.

Thanks again for the information and advice.

 

[jr600yd]

Different guns for different missions.