Does anyone out there have any actual experience with 180 grain Barnes bullets in a 1:12" twist barrel? Some research and checking with barrel makers turns up that the 1:12 twist will stabilize up to 190 gr bullets (lead core) and shoot accurately given that for many years, that twist has been used in a lot of long range competition guns. The only caveat that I have heard is whether or not the longer lenght of the all copper bullets would be any issue. I am on the cusp of ordering a barrel and want to be sure that it will stabilize a 180 Gr TSX for an upcoming elk hunt.
180 Gr Barnes TSX with 1:12 twist?
- Thread starter Jammer
- Start date
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
I presume we are talking .308 caliber here.
If you are going to be ordering a barrel and you are asking for reassurance a 1:12 twist will stabilize the longer Barnes bullets, I would submit to you that you are being a little silly. I would not hesitate to order a 1:11 twist barrel and simply not worry about it.
I do not shoot the 180gr Barnes TSX, but I do shoot the 180gr JLK LBT in my 1:11 twist F-TR match rifle. It does very well, thank you for asking. The JLK bullet measures 1.355 inch compared to the Barnes 1.391 inch. The Sierra 190 MK and GK are 1.353 inch.
I consider 1:11 twist to be optimum in the 175-200 gr weight for a .308.
If you are going to be ordering a barrel and you are asking for reassurance a 1:12 twist will stabilize the longer Barnes bullets, I would submit to you that you are being a little silly. I would not hesitate to order a 1:11 twist barrel and simply not worry about it.
I do not shoot the 180gr Barnes TSX, but I do shoot the 180gr JLK LBT in my 1:11 twist F-TR match rifle. It does very well, thank you for asking. The JLK bullet measures 1.355 inch compared to the Barnes 1.391 inch. The Sierra 190 MK and GK are 1.353 inch.
I consider 1:11 twist to be optimum in the 175-200 gr weight for a .308.
Actually this is for a 300 WSM. Your comments about my being silly are interesting, unwarranted, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks for your opinion. You will note in my post that I was asking for "Actual" experience with the application in question. Based on your post, that doesnt apply to you.
I have done more research since posting this and applying the relevant paramters to the Greenhill formula. With the length of the bullet in question and assuming even a pessimistic velocity, the 1:12 twist should be sufficient for the application.
I have done more research since posting this and applying the relevant paramters to the Greenhill formula. With the length of the bullet in question and assuming even a pessimistic velocity, the 1:12 twist should be sufficient for the application.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Jammer said:
Sorry, my crystal ball seems to be broken this morning.
Nobody else was answering and since I know the lengths of the various bullets (and static stability is all about length of bullets), I thought I would share my data, and I did state my assumption.
I see that you are continuing to use words like "should be" instead of "will" or "shall", denoting uncertainty. I should also point out that the Greenhill formula is not meant for non-lead spitzer type bullets. You would be much better served with the JBM Bullet stability calculator at http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi , and even then I'm not sure it's meant for all-copper bullets.
Using 2960 fps (from the Barnes website) with a bullet length of 1.391 (which I offered in my unwarranted but interesting post above,) at 59 degrees, you get a stability factor of 1.284. In colder temperatures, such as may be encountered while hunting elk, that factor diminishes quite rapidly.
Good luck with in your hunt.
Go to the Berger twist rate calculator and enter your data.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/litz/TwistRuleAltWP.php
Let's say you decided to try the 180 TTSX because the TSX didn't quite shoot like you wanted, it's 1.480" long per the barnes website. Entering that with a standard temp of 59 and 0' elevation 3000 fps with a 1:12 twist gives a SG of 1.08 which is very deep into the marginal stability category. 1.0 is considered unstable so at 1.08 you're right there. As you get colder it gets closer to unstable. How about next year you decide you'd like to try the 200 gr. LRX, it's 1.624" long and the 1:12 isn't going to come close to stabilizing it.
Were it me and my elk hunt I'd not even consider ordering a 1:12 barrel, it limits you too much. 1:11 would be better and if it were me I'd spec it 1:10. There's no reason not to, the 12 twist isn't going to shoot any better than a 10 twist would.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/litz/TwistRuleAltWP.php
Let's say you decided to try the 180 TTSX because the TSX didn't quite shoot like you wanted, it's 1.480" long per the barnes website. Entering that with a standard temp of 59 and 0' elevation 3000 fps with a 1:12 twist gives a SG of 1.08 which is very deep into the marginal stability category. 1.0 is considered unstable so at 1.08 you're right there. As you get colder it gets closer to unstable. How about next year you decide you'd like to try the 200 gr. LRX, it's 1.624" long and the 1:12 isn't going to come close to stabilizing it.
Were it me and my elk hunt I'd not even consider ordering a 1:12 barrel, it limits you too much. 1:11 would be better and if it were me I'd spec it 1:10. There's no reason not to, the 12 twist isn't going to shoot any better than a 10 twist would.
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
Note: I have no direct experience with this bullet. But, like others, I have lots of experience choosing twist rates for various bullets.
If a 1:12 is on the edge (or enough so to give you any doubts, which clearly, you have), why would you even consider it? Go with 1:11 as was suggested earlier by an exceptional shooter and be reassured.
If a 1:12 is on the edge (or enough so to give you any doubts, which clearly, you have), why would you even consider it? Go with 1:11 as was suggested earlier by an exceptional shooter and be reassured.
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
I have had great success with the 180 TTSX in 1-10" barrels in 300 RUM and 300 Win Mag rifles. I just sent one of the 300 RUM rifles off to be re-barreled and I sent a 1-11" barrel to the smith. I had the barrel gathering dust, otherwise it would be another 1-10".
If you have any doubt, order a faster twist barrel and you'll have no worries.
Scott
If you have any doubt, order a faster twist barrel and you'll have no worries.
Scott
Thanks for everybody's input. I was trying to see if a barrel that was readily available would work instead of a long wait. Just going by greenhill calculations, it looked like it would work but the stability calcs call that into question. I will get at least a 1:11 twist, although 1:10 is more commonly available.
Have used the barnes bullets for many years hunting deer and moose. If you're hunting elk the TTSX is certainly a more effective bullet, and expands easier and more reliably.
The 180 tsx's has a very sturdy construction and therefore will need more resistance to reliably expand, using them for long range hunting will very likely promote pin hole wounding. The barnes bullets are spectacular killers but they do work best with high velocity, driving the less solid bullets. For elk id look at the 150, and 165 s. No reason to use a 180 for such "light" game
The 180 tsx's has a very sturdy construction and therefore will need more resistance to reliably expand, using them for long range hunting will very likely promote pin hole wounding. The barnes bullets are spectacular killers but they do work best with high velocity, driving the less solid bullets. For elk id look at the 150, and 165 s. No reason to use a 180 for such "light" game
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