.17 twist rates

[Basher42]

I’m probably in over my head, but I’ve got the itch for a .17 centerfire and I’m considering options. I seems like ANY .17 is hard to find or expensive these days, ammo and rifles both. The .17 Hornet or .17 Fireball are highest on my list as they’re fast enough while still being quite efficient, but the only thing I can readily find are Savage 25s priced near $800, and I’m not sure I’m ready to pay that for a Savage.

But in my search, I stumbled across a Martini Cadet in .17 Ackley Bee. As someone who is in the very early stages of learning to reload, I’d have a lot to learn in forming cases, and .218 Bee brass isn’t exactly super available either. But I’ve always thought the Martini was cool, and it’s fairly reasonably priced. The problem? It has a 1:12 twist.

Apparently this was the common twist for the .17AB, but I’ve run all the common .17 bullets through Berger’s Stability Calculator and none of them show stability in a 1:12 twist, even during the hotter summer temps. Is the calculator off on the little .17s, or were bullets of years past shorter? I don’t want to buy it and find out nothing is stable in it. I could always rebarrel to .17H, but then it wouldn’t really be a good deal anymore…

I’m open to advice as I know little about the .17s outside of my .17HMR (which I love) and can find almost nothing on the .17AB. I’m a member on Saubier but can’t recall my password, the reset link isn’t sending me an email, and I can’t get an admin to respond to the forum contact form, so I figured this was the next best place to look. Thanks in advance!

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Common 17 caliber centerfire twists are 1/10 or 1/9. 1/10 is generally 25 gr and lighter, however my 1/10 Shilen doesn't shoot the 25 vmax(longer) as accurate as the 25 gr hp. 1/12 would likely need 15-17 gr bullets, depending on their length.

 

[SSL]

That would be a concern for me as well. .17 Remingtons (substantially faster than a reasonably loaded .17 Ackley Bee) used a 1-10" twist in 1971 and 1972 but standardized at 1-9' from 1973 to the present. 1-12" twist at lesser speed I would expect to have questionable accuracy.
You make a valid point about bullets of the past. When I picked up my first .17 Remington about the only bullets available were 25-grain Remington soft-points. Don't remember what Hornady offered because those little Remingtons shot and punched way outside their weight class so I had no need of anything else! Shot well, expanded fast but yet penetrated like a hunting bullet on heavier small game. Miss those little rascals! Nowadays I use Hornady 20 or 25 -grain SX and 25-grain Hornady hollow-points. Fun to shoot those little tings though.

 

[Basher42]

Common 17 caliber centerfire twists are 1/10 or 1/9. 1/10 is generally 25 gr and lighter, however my 1/10 Shilen doesn't shoot the 25 vmax(longer) as accurate as the 25 gr hp. 1/12 would likely need 15-17 gr bullets, depending on their length.

Yeah, most of what I’m seeing points to a 1:9 being the safest bet, save for those shooting some of the more specialized (and quite hard to find, apparently) heavy 30gr+ projectiles. I’m looking to run 25gr or below for whatever I end up buying, so the 1:9 should be fine for me.

The only lighter weight option I can seem to find that’s sold as projectiles only is the Hornady 15.5gr NTX. I’m not sure why Hornady doesn’t sell the 17gr VMAX or the 20gr XTP as projectiles, but it is what it is.

I appreciate the quick replies! Sadly, unless I can talk the seller down quite a ways I’ll likely pass on the Cadet. I honestly don’t even know what it would cost to rebarrel one, but I figure $400 at a minimum just for the barrel. I might be stuck with waiting for a decent deal on a used Savage 25 for the time being.

 

[Ray123]

I have 2, 17 Rem rifles both have 1-9 twist and shoot 15.5 gr Hornady to the 30 gr Berger bullets.

 

[Tommie]

I’d steer clear of that gun. The 1-12” twist is essentially useless. Add to that the scarceness of Bee brass and you’re looking at a wallhanger.

 

[JSH]

I would push you towards a new barrel and spin it on a donor action. I think you will see better end results over a factory rig (most anyway). If your just starting on hand loading, remove the variable and stick with some what more “average “ cartridge.

I have had several 17’s over the past several years. Nothing wrong with the Hornet, the Fireball will equal it along with easily surpassing it. Brass for both can be tough to find, there are some good folks actually making 221 now.
I dismissed my 17HH for the 17 Fireball for ease of use. It was way less finicky about coming up with a good load. I run nothing but 20’s in mine and 4000FPS is not hard to get too.

 

[bighornbob]

I’m probably in over my head, but I’ve got the itch for a .17 centerfire and I’m considering options. I seems like ANY .17 is hard to find or expensive these days, ammo and rifles both. The .17 Hornet or .17 Fireball are highest on my list as they’re fast enough while still being quite efficient, but the only thing I can readily find are Savage 25s priced near $800, and I’m not sure I’m ready to pay that for a Savage.

But in my search, I stumbled across a Martini Cadet in .17 Ackley Bee. As someone who is in the very early stages of learning to reload, I’d have a lot to learn in forming cases, and .218 Bee brass isn’t exactly super available either. But I’ve always thought the Martini was cool, and it’s fairly reasonably priced. The problem? It has a 1:12 twist.

Apparently this was the common twist for the .17AB, but I’ve run all the common .17 bullets through Berger’s Stability Calculator and none of them show stability in a 1:12 twist, even during the hotter summer temps. Is the calculator off on the little .17s, or were bullets of years past shorter? I don’t want to buy it and find out nothing is stable in it. I could always rebarrel to .17H, but then it wouldn’t really be a good deal anymore…

I’m open to advice as I know little about the .17s outside of my .17HMR (which I love) and can find almost nothing on the .17AB. I’m a member on Saubier but can’t recall my password, the reset link isn’t sending me an email, and I can’t get an admin to respond to the forum contact form, so I figured this was the next best place to look. Thanks in advance!

My 17AB is 1/10 twist. Cooper model 38. I haven’t shot any 30gr bullets in it. It shoots 20 & 25 gr In 1/4” groups
I prefer 1/9” twist for 30gr bullets
I’m having a short (18”) barrel fitted in 17 FB for my short range/ truck Varmint rifle. It is 1/10” due to the availability of 17 cal rifle blanks

Bob

 

[Basher42]

I would push you towards a new barrel and spin it on a donor action. I think you will see better end results over a factory rig (most anyway). If your just starting on hand loading, remove the variable and stick with some what more “average “ cartridge.

I have had several 17’s over the past several years. Nothing wrong with the Hornet, the Fireball will equal it along with easily surpassing it. Brass for both can be tough to find, there are some good folks actually making 221 now.
I dismissed my 17HH for the 17 Fireball for ease of use. It was way less finicky about coming up with a good load. I run nothing but 20’s in mine and 4000FPS is not hard to get too.

Thanks for the feedback.

I have everything to start reloading .223 and .308, about as “average” as you can get haha. But the last few years have been hectic for us (including a major career change, two moves last year one of which was across the county, among other stressors), so I’ve not had the chance to set up a reloading area and dig in. I wouldn’t likely start with whatever .17 I choose, but don’t plan to wait long to try it, either. Gotta start somewhere, eh?

 

[No manches"]

I recommend you get an older 223 rifle donor and make your self a .17 Remington the long case.

Easy to make brass out of 204 ruger and easier to find factory made brass.
It's a BIG plus now a day's.
Not one issue with magazine feeding and the extra umphh is always welcome

 

[searcher]

I’m probably in over my head, but I’ve got the itch for a .17 centerfire and I’m considering options. I seems like ANY .17 is hard to find or expensive these days, ammo and rifles both. The .17 Hornet or .17 Fireball are highest on my list as they’re fast enough while still being quite efficient, but the only thing I can readily find are Savage 25s priced near $800, and I’m not sure I’m ready to pay that for a Savage.

But in my search, I stumbled across a Martini Cadet in .17 Ackley Bee. As someone who is in the very early stages of learning to reload, I’d have a lot to learn in forming cases, and .218 Bee brass isn’t exactly super available either. But I’ve always thought the Martini was cool, and it’s fairly reasonably priced. The problem? It has a 1:12 twist.

Apparently this was the common twist for the .17AB, but I’ve run all the common .17 bullets through Berger’s Stability Calculator and none of them show stability in a 1:12 twist, even during the hotter summer temps. Is the calculator off on the little .17s, or were bullets of years past shorter? I don’t want to buy it and find out nothing is stable in it. I could always rebarrel to .17H, but then it wouldn’t really be a good deal anymore…

I’m open to advice as I know little about the .17s outside of my .17HMR (which I love) and can find almost nothing on the .17AB. I’m a member on Saubier but can’t recall my password, the reset link isn’t sending me an email, and I can’t get an admin to respond to the forum contact form, so I figured this was the next best place to look. Thanks in advance!

You want a 1-9" twist. I view my .17 Hornet as a "300 yard" rifle, though it is capable way past that, depending on wind conditions. Seems the wind is always blowing when I pull it out. The .20 Practical adds 25%+++, uses cheap, readily available brass and a bit greater selection on bullets. I might suggest piecing together the makings of a new rifle. I'd check to ascertain that someone makes a good trigger that will go into a Martini action - even if you did rebarrel it. Sometimes, you can pick up a used Remington action for a few hundred. I had a buddy recently bought a brand new Remington .223 for like $300.00 from some big sporting chain store. Figure a good tube around $330.00 + $250 to chamber it (or get a tube that is already chambered) add a nice trigger when you can - like a Jewell or something. It would cost you more than the new Savage in the end - but you can have the gunsmith machine it to be a "switch barrel", so you could then screw on, at your convenience a .223, .22 Nosler or other barrel conforming to the ,.223 cartridge, should you wish to add to the rifles versatility. Regarding that .17 HMR of yours - if you like it (as I do mine), just think of the .17 Hornet as the HMR on steroids, adding a minimum of 100 yards to accurate shooting - as well as being a cartridge you can tune to your rifle. Plus, you can shoot heavier bullets from it. Good luck!

 

[Basher42]

Update: I shot the seller a text re: the twist and he replied that a few other people had asked. So he checked it eith the ol’ cleaning rod and patch method and got several “readings” of a hair over 10” per twist. So accounting for a little slipping of the patch while pushing it through the bore, it looks like it’s actually a 1:10 twist. That seems doable, actually (searching Saubier shows several guys running a 10 twist in their .17s)…

And to add to things, I found a factory .17FB for a good price. Probably gonna jump on that since (while still hard to find) I can get already formed brass for it whereas I’d have to form the .17AB myself. But if I can swing it, I may still get the Martini as well. How close in performance are the .17AB and .17FB? The Hornet appeals to me a little more because factory ammo exists to get me shooting until I have dies/projecctiles, and it seems to have a little less overlap w/ the FB, but I’d have to settle for a Savage 25 most likely. Compare that to having a nicely done Martini Cadet. I’m inclined to get the Cadet even if it means the rifle has to sit awhile so I can gather the necessary reloading supplies and learn how to make the brass…

 

[ZenArchery]

1.7 so you can run them all.
Getting great accuracy with 21 HH @ 4555.

 

[No manches"]

I honestly have no experience with a .17 Fball so can't speak for it.
I do though have a .17 Hornady hornet and a .17 Remington long case.
I can for sure say that I can run 25 grn Vmax out the Hornet at 3k fps accurately.
And 3900 fps out the long case Remington

Both my rifles are CZ 's with a 9twist
The Hornady hornet was a little tricky to get a load for,( issues with brass).
The Remington long case easy and a WHOLE blast to shoot.

I too make some brass for wildcats and several obsolete cartridges.
It sometimes depends on the love you have at it...

 

[X Count]

Update: I shot the seller a text re: the twist and he replied that a few other people had asked. So he checked it eith the ol’ cleaning rod and patch method and got several “readings” of a hair over 10” per twist. So accounting for a little slipping of the patch while pushing it through the bore, it looks like it’s actually a 1:10 twist. That seems doable, actually (searching Saubier shows several guys running a 10 twist in their .17s)…

And to add to things, I found a factory .17FB for a good price. Probably gonna jump on that since (while still hard to find) I can get already formed brass for it whereas I’d have to form the .17AB myself. But if I can swing it, I may still get the Martini as well. How close in performance are the .17AB and .17FB? The Hornet appeals to me a little more because factory ammo exists to get me shooting until I have dies/projecctiles, and it seems to have a little less overlap w/ the FB, but I’d have to settle for a Savage 25 most likely. Compare that to having a nicely done Martini Cadet. I’m inclined to get the Cadet even if it means the rifle has to sit awhile so I can gather the necessary reloading supplies and learn how to make the brass…

Find a significant amount of components BEFORE building the gun.

I have a 9 twist 17fireball and run 25gr Berger hpfb with 16gr of 4198. For me I think the fireball capacity is about optimal for the 17 bore and the case design is better than a hornet and if your really caught you can make brass from 223. I found that seating close to the lands shrunk groups a lot more than other Cal's. I was concerned that it would be finicky to load for but it was pretty tolerant to powder charge just had to get the bullets close to the lands.

It's very mild to shoot, kills well and is surprisingly accurate. Now that Lapua have stopped making 221 brass and 17 fireball is less common if you want something more available but still different go with a 20 practical and an 11 twist.