168 Berger Hybrid Results

[liltank]

Well I finally took the plunge into a new bullet. I've been debating this bullet to use for F-T/R class this year. As this is my first year, the only thing I have to worry about is winning (don't see that happening, my wind skills SUCK! ). Anyway, I was able to get to the range today with some bullets and 4 different powders. The idea for 1000yd competition is that I need to meet a specific number. So that number is Mach 1.2 at 1000yds. To do so, many choose to shoot the 175 SMK, Berger, 178 A-max, and 185 Berger. These can do it with nominal velocity around 2600-2700 fps depending on the bullet. Some will even use the 208 A-max and the 210 Berger. These are all in .308 Winchester. I have to use .223 or .308. They are the only permitted calibers for F-T/R.

So I know that my rifle loves 168 grain bullets. Berger came out with a magic pill that cures the low BC disease that plagues the 168 class bullet. It is the Hybrid w/ a G1 BC of .519 and G7 of .266. If you crunch the numbers, the 168 Hybrid only needs to be pushed to 2740fps to achieve the magical number of Mach 1.2 to achieve the minimum stability speed for accuracy at 1000yds. Well after much research and debate I have found some powders that will do just what I need. With out further ado here's what I got.

These are all Alliant powders:

AR Comp

42.6grns 2748, 2748, 2738 Avg. 2745 ES 9.95 SD 5.74 Group 2 in one hole with a flier. I think if I seat them another .005 to .010 deeper, I should be able to rain that in.

42.8grns 2785, 2777, 2771 Avg. 2777 ES 12.75 SD 6.48 Same as above.

Power Pro 2000MR

49.0grns 2886, 2890, 2880 Avg. 2885 ES 10.31 SD 5.00 Group .5”

49.3grns 2890, 2895, 2909 Avg. 2898 ES 18.76 SD 9.84 Group .2”

49.5grns 2919, 2930, 2933 Avg. 2928 ES 14.15 SD 7.34 Group .5”

RL17

49.0grns 2774, 2780, 2776 Avg. 2777 ES 5.73 SD 3.00

So I am going to try these loads at 6 or 700 yards to see how they perform at distance. I have high hopes for the PP2K 49.5, RL17 49.0, and 42.6 of the AR Comp.

 

[Leaddog]

Jeromy- How about Varget, Reloader 15, and H4895? All good powders. And VV550 will really speed them up. Be careful in warm temps with that powder, though.

Btw..... 600 yards is an excellent range distance to start working on your wind/mirage skills.

If you didn't know already, I am Hawker over in Paradise. And you already know what Vern thinks you should be shooting, right? Lol.

 

[liltank]

Jeromy- How about Varget, Reloader 15, and H4895? All good powders. And VV550 will really speed them up. Be careful in warm temps with that powder, though.

Btw..... 600 yards is an excellent range distance to start working on your wind/mirage skills.

If you didn't know already, I am Hawker over in Paradise. And you already know what Vern thinks you should be shooting, right? Lol.

Hi Charlie,
I think I knew your name, but Hawker is the one I'm most familiar with. Anyway, I went with these powders because of having it on hand. I wanted to try the Power Pro 2000MR due to its velocity gain and reading what other guys have been able to do with it. The RL17 I have about 5 or 6 pounds left from when I had a WSM. AR Comp I found to be very good with my 168 NBT's. The RL15 I did run, but didn't give me the velocity I need. It shot very well, but I'm not sure how this bullet will do transitioning through the sub sonic range. Though I might run that load anyway because it was very accurate.

As for Varget and H4895... just never really played with them. I tried Varget years ago and a few times after that. The lot to lot variation is frustrating to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work for me. I have been very happy with Alliant powders for the most part. Never bought or tried H4895. I know its popular, but I like playing with the new powders. I have some old IMR 4895, but didn't use it this go round. Maybe one of these days I'll wise up! And finally, for the N550, I have a hard time justifying the price increase for powders that can achieve the same results for quarter to half the cost. So that's my story.

Overall I am pretty pleased with the initial test of the new bullets and powder. It will be interesting to see how this all works out. I know 175 and heavier is the standard, but this bullet by the numbers should perform a little better than the 175's, and 178 amax. The heavies will definitely have an advantage over me on the wind though (185+ grain bullets).

I'm really hoping the PP2K at 49.5grains does well. That puts me at Mach 1.33 at 1000yds with only requiring 27.1MOA. That is almost half of what I have ever experienced with any bullet I've used in .308. I've never ran the 155's, so have no idea there.

Jeromy

 

[liltank]

Just to make a correction, I noticed my fat fingers typed the wrong G1 BC for this bullet. The numbers are as follows:

BC
G1 .519
G7 .266
Bullet length 1.281

Here's a comparison: (left to right) 168 Berger Hybrid, 168NBT, 175 Custom Comp, 168 A-max

You can see that the Berger has a much smaller bearing surface with a longer nose and boat tail.

Seating depth with 2 separate accuracy loads.

 

[Leaddog]

Jeromy- I think it is time to go out and win some matches.

Btw.... Bridgeville, Delaware is having it's first 2012 3X600 NRA match on Sunday, March 25th if you have an interest. Send me your email by PM and I'll add you to our F Class maiing list so I can keep you informed of what's happening up here.

I am planning to see Vern this spring, too. He's been asking about my BBQ and I need to smoke some up for him and Pat. He also needs to shoot my new rifle to see the good job Jeff Walker did building it for me. It's awesome.

Good shooting!

 

[liltank]

Here are the targets from Wednesday at the range. Not sure what I did with the RL17 target. It was in the .2" or less range. It's stats were:

Avg. 2777, ES 5.73, SD 3.00

I think I can take care of that flier and tighten up the groups in the 42.6 and 42.8 seating the bullet a little deeper. That should also tighten up the ES too.... theoretically! ???

 

[Leaddog]

100 yards is mostly a marksmanship test of your abilities to control your rifle. You might want to run that test at 300 yards. I think you'll get better feedback. Shoot 5 shot groups (with the same point of aim as you are looking for vertical dispersion) and narrow them down to to 2 or 3 loads. Once there, do a round robin style of firing to tighten your results (vertical) with slight adjustments to your load. ES/SD for 3 shot groups is ambiguous. Once you have your load, shoot 10 shot groups to get an idea where your ES/SD is if that is really important to you. Seating depth variations will tighten these numbers. Your one target group is marked RL15. Did you mean RL17? RL17 has a reputation of throwing flyers.

Do you really need to push those bullets so hard? Seems excessive and a bunch of barrel burning in a .308. The .308 is easy to load for and is very forgiving. Your rifle seems like 2730-2750 fps. Just pick a load and velocity with minimal fuss and go win some matches. Personally, I like the 185 LRBT powdered up with Varget although I am going to see how H4895 does. Don't get too hung up on the Mach 1.2 thing. Yes, it is a factor, but you really need to just go and shoot and see what you have going on at the target and 1000 yards.

 

[liltank]

Shoot 5 shot groups (with the same point of aim as you are looking for vertical dispersion) and narrow them down to to 2 or 3 loads. Once there, do a round robin style of firing to tighten your results (vertical) with slight adjustments to your load. ES/SD for 3 shot groups is ambiguous. Once you have your load, shoot 10 shot groups to get an idea where your ES/SD is if that is really important to you. Seating depth variations will tighten these numbers. Your one target group is marked RL15. Did you mean RL17? RL17 has a reputation of throwing flyers.Do you really need to push those bullets so hard?

I don't know if I need to push them that hard. The target marked RL15 is RL15. I only tried 3 different loads of RL17. It has the smallest ES. Let me explain. I have gleaned a ton of information over the winter. All this information seems to be pointing to tight extreme spread, low shot dispersion variations, and Mach 1.2. I know you guys know what your doing and it is hard to sift through the mess. My concern is the 168 maintaining stability at that distance. I'm pretty sure the Berger will do fine at distance even below the Mach 1.2 (I know don't get hung up on this :-\ ), but I want that advantage. I really like the 45.7 group with RL15, I'm hoping the 42.6 of AR Comp (max load for the powder, but lowest powder charge, may even try a different primer at the current length to see if that helps any) will tighten up with seating it deeper. I wish I had the target for the RL17, but it was a good target too. So I'm thinking I want to try that one again. The AR Comp is the coolest shooting of all of them. So I really want that one to work. PP2K is going to become my hunting powder and load I think. It just heats the barrel too quick. I think I am going to break down and run some Varget. I have some here at the house and give it ago. Any suggestions for a starting point with a 168gr bullet?

 

[Leaddog]

I think I am going to break down and run some Varget. I have some here at the house and give it ago. Any suggestions for a starting point with a 168gr bullet?

Give Berger a call and they will give you load recommendations for the bullet.

 

[Longtrain]

Liltank:

You've done a great deal of work here and you're on the right track.

Accuracy < 1/2 MOA, low SD and mach 1.2 (in that order), are what I look for in a LR F-T/R load. You may want to spend more time on the Berger 185, Varget a good primer like BR2's, decent cases and really accurate loading techniques, i.e turning necks, low run out, weighting cases, etc. IMO, when they made the target smaller, you need to load a bit like a benchrest shooter to keep on top of the game.

You may want to look at the 180 JLK's from Swampworks, they just shoot, that's all I use out 800-1K.
For 600 yards in, the 175 SMK's shoots clover leafs in my rifle. They shoot well at 800, 900 ok, but kinda fall off the horse at 1K for me.

Good luck...

Tony

 

[liltank]

I think I am going to break down and run some Varget. I have some here at the house and give it ago. Any suggestions for a starting point with a 168gr bullet?

Give Berger a call and they will give you load recommendations for the bullet.

Will do.

 

[liltank]

Liltank:

You've done a great deal of work here and you're on the right track.

Accuracy < 1/2 MOA, low SD and mach 1.2 (in that order), are what I look for in a LR F-T/R load. You may want to spend more time on the Berger 185, Varget a good primer like BR2's, decent cases and really accurate loading techniques, i.e turning necks, low run out, weighting cases, etc. IMO, when they made the target smaller, you need to load a bit like a benchrest shooter to keep on top of the game.

You may want to look at the 180 JLK's from Swampworks, they just shoot, that's all I use out 800-1K.
For 600 yards in, the 175 SMK's shoots clover leafs in my rifle. They shoot well at 800, 900 ok, but kinda fall off the horse at 1K for me.

Good luck...

Tony

Thanks for the info Tony. Current components are RWS Brass, F210M's. I do trim my cases regularly, and have already turned the necks. I don't pay much attention to run out. I'm going to use Charlie's suggestion and call Berger for the Varget load. I'm also going to run the current loads that were accurate with good ES, that would be the AR Comp 42.6grn (I know the target has a flier, so I'm going to run the same load with a wolf primer, and the original load with a deeper seating depth.), RL15 45.7, and RL17 49.0 load. I am going to do it prone this time and use 5 shots of each and shoot to 300yds to see what's really going on. Thanks again for the help though! I appreciate everybody's advice.

 

[Longtrain]

...I don't pay much attention to run out.

You really need to watch run out for optimum accuracy. If the bullet doesn't enter the barrel straight, if doesn't come out straight. The further out you go, this error magnifies itself. Shoot 4 shots with cases that are .000-.002, then shoot the 5th shot with a case that measures .007 out, you'll be scratching your head on what went wrong. You mention that you had a flyer or so in your groups...run out or human error?

You need to eliminate as many variables to ensure top accuracy, as I said you're on the right track. This can be tough, especially on days with variable environmental conditions. But, of course, we all do this testing on a perfect no-wind day, right? Hang in there...

Tony