OK guys and gals. I did my first field precision rifle match today. I was allowed to do the short course up to 323 yds. Later the organizer let me shoot out to 605 yds. I was using 155 amax match that worked fine. I wasn't expecting to be allowed to go that far or I would have brought something else. One fellow was using a TRG in 308 with 155 lapua vlds to go 1000. Should I bother trying out some vlds in the 155 range or go straight to 175-178. I was told 168 amaxs won't do it. Any thought? Rifle is a 700 xcr tactical. 24" barrel with 1-12. Thanks
155s for 308 to 1k
- Thread starter armike
- Start date
you are going to have find out what shoots best for you. there are a couple of approaches to your question. many guys like the 155's going as fast as possible because they will hang with the 175's and have a little less recoil. you usually can watch your bullet go in and correct if needed. seems like the 185's would be the way to go if going heavy since they have a significant gain in BC.
on paper, if you load to the same pressure the heavier bullet by the same manufacturer will have better ballistics, according to Litz. but in your example a 155amax is far behind a 175 Berger in terms of wind cutting ability, unless you load the 155 far overpressure. the issue with field rifles and 155's is that you have to overpressure load them to get the velocity to hang with 175's. the match 155's were really made to shoot in rifles with 30" barrels, see the issue?
My take shoot the best 155 bullet you can afford and learn to build a position to watch the bullet all the way into the steel. learn to read wind (that is actually the fun part in all this), correct when necessary. maybe later go to 185's.
on paper, if you load to the same pressure the heavier bullet by the same manufacturer will have better ballistics, according to Litz. but in your example a 155amax is far behind a 175 Berger in terms of wind cutting ability, unless you load the 155 far overpressure. the issue with field rifles and 155's is that you have to overpressure load them to get the velocity to hang with 175's. the match 155's were really made to shoot in rifles with 30" barrels, see the issue?
My take shoot the best 155 bullet you can afford and learn to build a position to watch the bullet all the way into the steel. learn to read wind (that is actually the fun part in all this), correct when necessary. maybe later go to 185's.
You will find that the 155 and 168gr Amaxs wont cut it at 1000 yds. But there are several other 155gr bullets that do great at 1000yds. The Lapua Scenars, the Berger 155.5gr fullbores and the Sierra 2156 155gr Palma bullet are all three great choices. You do have to get them moving pretty quick though. I push the Berger 155.5gr Fullbore to 3025 fps in my FT/R rifle
And there is the rub. Palma and Fullbore shooters who shoot 155s at 1000 regularly will tell you that in order to get your muzzle velocity above 2950 fps (one very excellent shooter I know is happy with 2930) one will need a barrel in the 30" range. Many shoot 32" for just a bit more. That said I saw one new shooter use a 20" box stock Remmy and Federal 175 GM make to a grand. Groups were nonexistent but he made it.
Just a barrel change away... Well, and perhaps some action truing as well...Better trigger would be nice...Darn this scope doesn't magnify enough...
It becomes a disease one is happy to have.
Just a barrel change away... Well, and perhaps some action truing as well...Better trigger would be nice...Darn this scope doesn't magnify enough...
It becomes a disease one is happy to have.
I run 26" barrels in my 308s and i make it to 1000yds with 155gr bullets. Your gonna need to run 46gr plus of Varget (AR2208) or similar of RL15. Your best bet getting there supersonic is actually a 155gr bullet like the 155.5gr Fullbore (which I run), the 155gr Seirra Palma SMK, or the 155gr Berger Hybrid. The 155.5gr Fullbore should be simplest to get shooting. I run 46.2gr Varget in Lapua Palma Brass with CCI450's my 26" barrels and can get 2880 to 2950 depending on bullet used. VLDs will produce more pressure so maybe worth trying them first If you can find one with a decent BC. You may have to run higher pressures but if thats your goal its doable. Just gonna have to play around with it.
Good luck and Have fun!!!!
Good luck and Have fun!!!!
I'm new doing this also. Same caliber, 308 and same 1 in 12 twist barrel except 26 inches. I understood that a 1 in 12 twist barrel wouldn't handle much more than a 168 gr. bullet. Was that good, not so good or bad info I was given? Being at the very begining of handloading I'm not sure I'm ready to step into the waters of "over pressure" loads.
I chrono'd 10 rounds using Hornady 168gr. HPBP Match and 44 grains of Varget. My 10 round average muzzle velocity was 2,670 fps. According to the Hornady ballistics calculator that load was still supersonic at 1000 yards at 1200 fps. I also ran the 168 gr, AMAX and it was 1249 fps at 1000 yards.
So my question is the OP said the AMAX wouldn't make at 1000 yards so I guess the HPBT won't make it either. Why?
Now remember, I'm greener than grass about this so I need all the help I can get.
I was thinking the 168gr. would do better in the wind than the 155gr. was I wrong?
Thanks
I chrono'd 10 rounds using Hornady 168gr. HPBP Match and 44 grains of Varget. My 10 round average muzzle velocity was 2,670 fps. According to the Hornady ballistics calculator that load was still supersonic at 1000 yards at 1200 fps. I also ran the 168 gr, AMAX and it was 1249 fps at 1000 yards.
So my question is the OP said the AMAX wouldn't make at 1000 yards so I guess the HPBT won't make it either. Why?
Now remember, I'm greener than grass about this so I need all the help I can get.
I was thinking the 168gr. would do better in the wind than the 155gr. was I wrong?
Thanks
The original .30 168 was the Sierra 'International' way back in the 1950s or 60s designed specifically for 300 metre ISSF competition - it's still there as Sierra's famous 168gn MatchKing. It's a great short-range bullet, easy to tune usually in 308 and is still the gold standard for many factory ammo users with Federal and Black Hills etc match / LE use.
With its great success, everybody else copied it, or at any rate produced something similar - the Hornady 168gn 'National Match', Speer Gold Match, Nosler Custom Competition and a few more.
The name 'National Match' tells you a lot - this bullet's top level heyday was when first the Garand M1 then the M14 / M1A were shot up and down the US in XTC matches with their 600 yards longest stage, also the 168gn weight is well suited with powders like 4895 and 4064 to these rifles' gas powered operating systems that become iffy with 180s and suffer damage with anything heavier at normal max 30-06 / 308 pressures. But, when people started shooting 'Long-Range Service Rifle', at up to 1,000 they got very mixed results. Sometimes the bullet worked OK albeit with one heck of a lot of windage movement in any change, but more often the shooter struggled to find the frame never mind the X and a lot of bullet holes showed tumbling.
These bullets have two problems, first very modest (read LOW) BCs, and secondly they all have steep tail angles running up to 13 or 14-deg. The optimal boat-tail angle is 7 to 8 deg, certainly under 10 and going for steeper angled tails sees the airflow delaminate from the bullet walls especially in the turbulent transonic zone speeds, 1.2 MACH down to the speed of sound which is usally around 1,125-1,130 fps. The turbulence slows them even more and also often makes them unstable, so they are both subsonic at the target and likely yawing around all over the place. They also become sensitised to any minor wind change seeing them blown off the target frame in any sort of difficult wind condition changes.
The only 168s that are 'OK' in this respect having been designed for long-range shooting are the three Bergers, the BT, VLD and Hybrid. Other bullets that are also so affected are all Hornady .30 A-Max models other than the 208gn. (Hornady's new generation HPBT Match models other than the antediluvian 168gn are all designed for L-R use with 7-9-deg boattails.)
Use Bryan Litz's G7 BCs, not the useless (for L-R) G1 model that has something akin to a 40gn .22 Long Rifle LRN 'solid' as its reference projectile. Litz gives the 168gn Hornady a G7 value of 0.222 and the Sierra MK 0.218, that comparing to 0.266 average for the Berger 168 Hybrid. Run the Hornady at Maggiesdraws 2,670 fps and forgetting any tail induced instability, that MV and BC combination sees a G7 based program predict 1,052 fps at 1,000 with it going subsonic ~900 yards and transonic between 700 and 800.
Have a look at the 175gn Berger LR BT and new model 178gn Hornady HPBT, G7 BCs of 0.264 and 0.257, also the 185gn Juggernaut (0.283). All are stabilised in a 12 inch twist, although with Sg (stability coefficient) values between 1.3 and 1.4, they'll theoretically lose a small percentage of their BC value, 3-5% theoretically reduced in 'standard conditions' (59-deg F and sea level altitude).
With its great success, everybody else copied it, or at any rate produced something similar - the Hornady 168gn 'National Match', Speer Gold Match, Nosler Custom Competition and a few more.
The name 'National Match' tells you a lot - this bullet's top level heyday was when first the Garand M1 then the M14 / M1A were shot up and down the US in XTC matches with their 600 yards longest stage, also the 168gn weight is well suited with powders like 4895 and 4064 to these rifles' gas powered operating systems that become iffy with 180s and suffer damage with anything heavier at normal max 30-06 / 308 pressures. But, when people started shooting 'Long-Range Service Rifle', at up to 1,000 they got very mixed results. Sometimes the bullet worked OK albeit with one heck of a lot of windage movement in any change, but more often the shooter struggled to find the frame never mind the X and a lot of bullet holes showed tumbling.
These bullets have two problems, first very modest (read LOW) BCs, and secondly they all have steep tail angles running up to 13 or 14-deg. The optimal boat-tail angle is 7 to 8 deg, certainly under 10 and going for steeper angled tails sees the airflow delaminate from the bullet walls especially in the turbulent transonic zone speeds, 1.2 MACH down to the speed of sound which is usally around 1,125-1,130 fps. The turbulence slows them even more and also often makes them unstable, so they are both subsonic at the target and likely yawing around all over the place. They also become sensitised to any minor wind change seeing them blown off the target frame in any sort of difficult wind condition changes.
The only 168s that are 'OK' in this respect having been designed for long-range shooting are the three Bergers, the BT, VLD and Hybrid. Other bullets that are also so affected are all Hornady .30 A-Max models other than the 208gn. (Hornady's new generation HPBT Match models other than the antediluvian 168gn are all designed for L-R use with 7-9-deg boattails.)
Use Bryan Litz's G7 BCs, not the useless (for L-R) G1 model that has something akin to a 40gn .22 Long Rifle LRN 'solid' as its reference projectile. Litz gives the 168gn Hornady a G7 value of 0.222 and the Sierra MK 0.218, that comparing to 0.266 average for the Berger 168 Hybrid. Run the Hornady at Maggiesdraws 2,670 fps and forgetting any tail induced instability, that MV and BC combination sees a G7 based program predict 1,052 fps at 1,000 with it going subsonic ~900 yards and transonic between 700 and 800.
Have a look at the 175gn Berger LR BT and new model 178gn Hornady HPBT, G7 BCs of 0.264 and 0.257, also the 185gn Juggernaut (0.283). All are stabilised in a 12 inch twist, although with Sg (stability coefficient) values between 1.3 and 1.4, they'll theoretically lose a small percentage of their BC value, 3-5% theoretically reduced in 'standard conditions' (59-deg F and sea level altitude).
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
There is a lot of anecdotes running through some shooting communities. The tactical community is not immune.
168 Matchkings (SMK) can and do hit sideways at 1k, but not every bullet. Accuracy in that situation is non-existent.
The 175 Matchking does come in straight even when sub-sonic. Wind drift is very high.
A good 155 bullet (Lapua, Berger, Sierra 2156) will have a G7 BC that rivals the 175 SMK, but will leave the muzzle ~150 fps faster. The result will be less wind drift and less drop. From the unknown distance (laser rangefinders are still not perfect) perspective, less drop is an advantage.
The 155 Amax is a good bullet within its realm. It really is a bit of a handicap at 1K compared to some of the better 155 offerings. I'd suggest buying or borrowing one of Bryan Litz' books in order to gain a grasp of what you might need (bullet wise) to make the experience more enjoyable.
168 Matchkings (SMK) can and do hit sideways at 1k, but not every bullet. Accuracy in that situation is non-existent.
The 175 Matchking does come in straight even when sub-sonic. Wind drift is very high.
A good 155 bullet (Lapua, Berger, Sierra 2156) will have a G7 BC that rivals the 175 SMK, but will leave the muzzle ~150 fps faster. The result will be less wind drift and less drop. From the unknown distance (laser rangefinders are still not perfect) perspective, less drop is an advantage.
The 155 Amax is a good bullet within its realm. It really is a bit of a handicap at 1K compared to some of the better 155 offerings. I'd suggest buying or borrowing one of Bryan Litz' books in order to gain a grasp of what you might need (bullet wise) to make the experience more enjoyable.
Both the original 155gn SMK (#2155) and 175gn are very good trans and subsonic numbers remaining very stable throughout. A shame about their modest BCs. Can't comment on the current Palma MK (2156) - so far I've rarely persuaded it to group well for me in any 308 I own, but I'm now playing with an old Paramount TR rifle with a tight bore 1-14 inch twist Lothar Walther barrel on it as an el cheapo FTR rifle, so who knows?
I've had very good L-R results with the 168gn Hybrid running them initially in the low 2900s, now at the high end. A bit finicky though in my and others I know who've tried them experience - had to be treated like a VLD and seated 'in'. If the XCR is like other factory Remingtons, the OP won't get the 168 Hybrid's ogive anywhere near the lands. That's the beauty of the 175gn and 185gn Berger LRBTs - very jump tolerant.
I RO'd three relays of a 1,000 yard TR and F-Class match at Diggle in Northern England in very tricky winds and low temperatures last Saturday - lots of 60s and 70s scores in FTR (120s / 140s on US targets) even with 185 and 200gn Hybrid loads. Two unfortunate visitors to the club brought a 26-inch barrel restocked Remy SPS Varmint and were shooting 168gn PPU (Serbian) factory match ammo which has a bullet pretty similar to the SMK. They both shot in the 20s (40s US) with 48-MOA come-up needed on a 100yd zero and 50% or so of shots complete misses. Every bullet that got on the frame went through sideways leaving a perfect bullet profile on the Correx the Butts Officer told me afterwards.
Factory rifle, I am sure the throat is horribly long. I was never able to get VLDs to shoot well in a factory barrel, the lands are too far away.
Berger has a bullet stability calculator on their website: http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
JBM Ballistics has a trajectory and wind calculator in their site: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
Start picking bullets, use your twist rate, plug in some velocities you think you can achieve with whatever powder you choose, and see what you get for wind drift, drop, and stability. Then start load development.
The Berger 155.5 Fullbore might be a good place to start. If you're willing to push them hard enough, also look at the Berger 185 Juggernauts.
Welcome to the club.
Berger has a bullet stability calculator on their website: http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
JBM Ballistics has a trajectory and wind calculator in their site: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
Start picking bullets, use your twist rate, plug in some velocities you think you can achieve with whatever powder you choose, and see what you get for wind drift, drop, and stability. Then start load development.
The Berger 155.5 Fullbore might be a good place to start. If you're willing to push them hard enough, also look at the Berger 185 Juggernauts.
Welcome to the club.
Thanks for the info. That's a bunch of stuff to get one's head around!!!!!
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