1/2MOA out of Savage F-class
- Thread starter Stickman
- Start date
With the right loads and bullets you could shoot better. It also depends on your level of expertise behind a trigger as well.I have seen the f class savages shoot bug holes under good conditions but that doesnt always have to be the case ,again depending on who's doing the shooting.If your barrel doesnt prove out in the long run,you can replace it easily with several different after market pre-threaded and chambered barrels such as shilen,pacnor,mcgowen and several others. Can yopu tell us how many rounds down the barrel and has it been cleaned properly to make sure it is not all coppered up.
There comes a time in F Class long range when honest practicality must supercede guys shooting the occasional 1/4 moa at short range.
Most F Class shooters are happy shooting one moa at long range with expensive custom rifles. This will keep you in the 5 ring on the International 5 ring target. The 1/2 minute centre V-ring will look after itself. With any luck half the shots go into the V-ring or the U.S. NRA X-ring.
If you have a factory rifle that consistently shoots 1/2 moa at long range I would consider leaving it in your will if the barrel lasts that long. The 6.5/284 is not easy on barrels.
Your primary concern as a new shooter is learning to read the wind. It helps to have an accurate custom rifle but the wind is everything.
Good luck with your new F Class rifle. Having fun is the most important part of shooting.
Bill
Most F Class shooters are happy shooting one moa at long range with expensive custom rifles. This will keep you in the 5 ring on the International 5 ring target. The 1/2 minute centre V-ring will look after itself. With any luck half the shots go into the V-ring or the U.S. NRA X-ring.
If you have a factory rifle that consistently shoots 1/2 moa at long range I would consider leaving it in your will if the barrel lasts that long. The 6.5/284 is not easy on barrels.
Your primary concern as a new shooter is learning to read the wind. It helps to have an accurate custom rifle but the wind is everything.
Good luck with your new F Class rifle. Having fun is the most important part of shooting.
Bill
+1 I'd be elated if my custom rifles shot .5MOA at 500 yards. Of course, ".5MOA" needs better definition. How many shots in a group and how many groups? People talk so casually about ".5 MOA" or better. Over a 20 shot string, I'd love to have a 1MOA group, but most of the time, my wind reading skills are far worse than that. I think elevation is a much better gauge of your rifle, ammo, shooter combo and 1/2MOA is a good goal there.1000yardstare said:
Hiya,
I too have a Savage m12 for F-Class, however chambered for a .308 which dose pretty well against the 7mm's and with the right loads, its groups aren't too bad. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3765199.0;attach=874055;image knowing now how many rounds I have put through the rifle in the last 12 months to find the most accurate bullet for the barrel and just practicing for my self to be able to shoot it to somewhere near its potential, if starting out I would not hesitate to use a .308 again. The Barrel life alone would sell it to me. Learning to read the wind will have you putting plenty of rounds through it. My own wind reading skills are getting better but its going to take a long time and a lot of rounds yet before I would be happy to go through barrels like some others I know shooting F-Class using 6.5x284 who's wind reading skills let them shoot with out the constant need for practice to refine them.
+1 for changing the barrel.
I too have a Savage m12 for F-Class, however chambered for a .308 which dose pretty well against the 7mm's and with the right loads, its groups aren't too bad. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3765199.0;attach=874055;image knowing now how many rounds I have put through the rifle in the last 12 months to find the most accurate bullet for the barrel and just practicing for my self to be able to shoot it to somewhere near its potential, if starting out I would not hesitate to use a .308 again. The Barrel life alone would sell it to me. Learning to read the wind will have you putting plenty of rounds through it. My own wind reading skills are getting better but its going to take a long time and a lot of rounds yet before I would be happy to go through barrels like some others I know shooting F-Class using 6.5x284 who's wind reading skills let them shoot with out the constant need for practice to refine them.
+1 for changing the barrel.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Hombre0321, that's some very fine shooting! What is the highest score you have ever shot in actual 600 yard F-Class competition?
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
I hope that's not out of a possible 600-60x! 
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Looks like the wind is not kind to you! ;D
Keep at it, it will only get better!
Keep at it, it will only get better!
Going back to the OP's question, the honest answer is 'Maybe yes, maybe not'. It IS a factory rile after all and there are no guarantees of anything under half-MOA, or even always obtaining that. Some of these rifles hold long-range 'Factory Sporter' class bench rest records, others struggle to produce 100yd groups under three-quarters of an inch, or even an inch. It depends on 'barrel quality', and with large numbers being made to a budget, the best are really good, most fall in the middle, and more than a few 'dogs' escape into the wild.
As a 'newbie' to long-range shooting you're doing well if you've lucked straight onto a genuine half-MOA job. If you're inexperienced, you'll gain more points now from improving your shooting and wind-reading skills than spending lots of time at a bench working up handloads. Moreover, as Bill points out, the 6.5-284 is a barrel burner, 800-1,200 rounds depending on loads and the nature of the shooting, so a barrel such as yours that shoots very well is best restricted to competition and serious long-range practice. Get hold of some of the better books on precision handloading, and look for tips here on the forum - depending on what you're doing now, there may be opportunities to make your ammunition a little more consistent.
You don't say what your discipline is, but assuming it is F Class there are some good books on how to read the wind, The Wind Book for Rifle Shooters by Linda K Miller, and Prone and Long Range Rifle Shooting by Nancy Tompkins are excellent and available at reasonable prices on Amazon. The latter covers all aspects of competitive shooting but has a long chapter on reading the wind, and while it's mainly aimed at Fullbore and Palma sling shooters, the contents also apply to F Class.
Good shooting!
Laurie,
York, England
Well thanks for all the good advise guys!
I will burn through this barrel as the purpose for this gun in the first place was a starter. I will probably re-chamber this barrel and give the gun to my 10 year old son. I was thinking of making it a 6.5 x 47 Lapua seems like a neat caliber and maybe about right for a youngster.
I am going to build a custom soon so that when this barrel goes I have a replacment gun.
I will ladder test till I find a .5 Minute load and then practice, practice, practice!!
I will burn through this barrel as the purpose for this gun in the first place was a starter. I will probably re-chamber this barrel and give the gun to my 10 year old son. I was thinking of making it a 6.5 x 47 Lapua seems like a neat caliber and maybe about right for a youngster.
I am going to build a custom soon so that when this barrel goes I have a replacment gun.
I will ladder test till I find a .5 Minute load and then practice, practice, practice!!
Yes, an excellent choice. There is one downside to be aware of - 6.5X47L and other small primer / high-pressure cartridges often give trouble with factory action bolts and firing pins - extrusion back into the firing pin orifice in the bolt-face causing 'cratering' and often piercing before you get up to full working pressure loads. The savage 12 action is better than many, but it's still an issue.
The answer is either to go for 6.5X47L, but budget for maybe needing to have Gre' Tan Engineering do a bushing job for you, or to choose an equivalent performance 6.5mm whose cases use large primers - 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor, or .260 Remington. The former has quickly built up an excellent reputation but only has Hornady brass available, while the latter has a large range of cases available including newly introduced Lapua. All three have similar performance, the .260 slightly more powerful than the 6.5 HCM and that slightly more so than the 6.5X47l. Some people find the 6.5X47L a bit finicky to get best results from, the other two are deemed very flexible.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Sorry Laurie, but I have yet to come across a finicky 6.5x47 Lapua, but maybe I'm just lucky! ;D
At the 2010 Ontario F Class Championship, I was squadded on a 1000 yd target with a chap shooting a 6.5x47 out of a big green Sako. He said he had any amount of trouble with the small primer brass and had gone to the large primer brass.
He finished with a 44-0V for 10 shots on the International 5 ring target. I had limped into the competition shooting F(TR) with my backup .308 after my 6AI was shot out so I was not giving him much help. After our guns were cleared off the line he staggered away in disbelief.
He had come into the competition thinking he had the wonder combination and was going to win everything. I had shot with him in previous years when he was shooting F(TR) and know he is a good shooter.
Have to be honest and say that is the only 6.5x47 I have seen in competition. Given my druthers I would go with the .260 Rem(LR) or 6.5x55 if I had to shoot a straight factory cartridge.
Bill
He finished with a 44-0V for 10 shots on the International 5 ring target. I had limped into the competition shooting F(TR) with my backup .308 after my 6AI was shot out so I was not giving him much help. After our guns were cleared off the line he staggered away in disbelief.
He had come into the competition thinking he had the wonder combination and was going to win everything. I had shot with him in previous years when he was shooting F(TR) and know he is a good shooter.
Have to be honest and say that is the only 6.5x47 I have seen in competition. Given my druthers I would go with the .260 Rem(LR) or 6.5x55 if I had to shoot a straight factory cartridge.
Bill
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Just because you saw one "47" shoot bad doesn't make it an inacuraye caliber!
I have seen Dashers, BRX's, and 6BR's shoot bad, heck, there are even 6PPC's that are not accurate out there! That means nothing!
One more thing, I don't know who the shooter was that you are talking about, but if the shooter is having a bad day, the gun will not shoot as well, and that is a fact!... has happened to me!
I have seen Dashers, BRX's, and 6BR's shoot bad, heck, there are even 6PPC's that are not accurate out there! That means nothing!
One more thing, I don't know who the shooter was that you are talking about, but if the shooter is having a bad day, the gun will not shoot as well, and that is a fact!... has happened to me!
Hi Erik,
some people I know with the cartridge seemed to have a fair bit of work to get combinations that work. This was early days before recommendations here and elsewhere became widely available.
My own direct experience is more limited than I would like. A Savage action / Lothar Walther barrelled number I had on loan for a rifle / stock test proved marvellously accurate from the off with 123gn Scenars (I think) and a couple of Viht powders straight out of the current manual. Wow! I thought, I want one of them. Sadly, nobody told me about the small primer cratering issue and as I had an FN SPR A4 in .308W, a straight rebarrel seemed a great idea. Sadly, it pierces primers with starting loads, or at any rate charges within a grain of them, not conducive to confidence or good results. So, it's stayed in the cabinet without use for the last 18 months or so while I got on with other things.
That rifle will become a short-throated .260 Rem anytime soon once a friend finds the time to take the barrel off and rechamber it for me. My presently .308W Barnard / Elsiseo / Broughton ex F/TR rifle will be rebarrelled to 6.5X47L later this year after I finish a load development programme on the .308 with small primer brass, also heavy (210gn) bullets. So, I expect to have finally have a usable 6.5X47L F Class rifle sometime in the autumn, and am looking forward to it.
Having caught the 6.5mm bug, largely as it goes out of fashion with some others, I'll end up with six rifles in the calibre by the end of 2011 as follows:
That'll give me lots of handloading development work for a few years and the chance to compare the 6.5s against each other as well as my two sixes.
some people I know with the cartridge seemed to have a fair bit of work to get combinations that work. This was early days before recommendations here and elsewhere became widely available.
My own direct experience is more limited than I would like. A Savage action / Lothar Walther barrelled number I had on loan for a rifle / stock test proved marvellously accurate from the off with 123gn Scenars (I think) and a couple of Viht powders straight out of the current manual. Wow! I thought, I want one of them. Sadly, nobody told me about the small primer cratering issue and as I had an FN SPR A4 in .308W, a straight rebarrel seemed a great idea. Sadly, it pierces primers with starting loads, or at any rate charges within a grain of them, not conducive to confidence or good results. So, it's stayed in the cabinet without use for the last 18 months or so while I got on with other things.
That rifle will become a short-throated .260 Rem anytime soon once a friend finds the time to take the barrel off and rechamber it for me. My presently .308W Barnard / Elsiseo / Broughton ex F/TR rifle will be rebarrelled to 6.5X47L later this year after I finish a load development programme on the .308 with small primer brass, also heavy (210gn) bullets. So, I expect to have finally have a usable 6.5X47L F Class rifle sometime in the autumn, and am looking forward to it.
Having caught the 6.5mm bug, largely as it goes out of fashion with some others, I'll end up with six rifles in the calibre by the end of 2011 as follows:
- Said Barnard, 6.5X47L
- Said FN SPR, .260 Rem
- Stiller tactical magazine, 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor
- Armalite AR10(T), manual operation build, 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor
- Savage 12 F Class, rebarrelled to 6.5X55mm - a really great shooter now that it has a good barrel on, and an old favourite cartridge of mine.
- Parker-Hale M87 ex police tactical rifle, currently .260 Rem to be rechambered to 6.5-284 Norma
That'll give me lots of handloading development work for a few years and the chance to compare the 6.5s against each other as well as my two sixes.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
Laurie, sounds like you will be busy!
You will not be disappointed by the "47", it's a pleasure to shoot! Good luck!
You will not be disappointed by the "47", it's a pleasure to shoot! Good luck!
Well.......I was talking about shooting at 1000 yds and I see Dashers, 6BR and 6BRX being offered up but no matter. I am sure that Laurie with his experience and easy-going manner will give the "47" a good work out and I look forward to his reporting on same.
Locally I know of no one having a purpose built F Class rifle built in 6.5x47 knowing that the Eastern Canadian Championships being shot on the July 1 long weekend will be at Palma ranges (800, 900, 1000) all three days. I would expect that my 6.5x57AI will be the smallest cartridge there.
The problem/challenge is the 1/2 minute inner ring on all targets world wide. This requires a cartridge with more horsepower than the "47" to fight the wind at those ranges.
Four years ago when Savage brought out the 6BR in its M12 Target Rifles a whole host of local F Classers walked around with diamonds in their eyes dreaming of the Ontario Champion Trophy. When their ears were pinned back at 1000 yds on a windy day they all traded in on the Savage 6.5/284 which have since been rebarrelled with varying degrees of success.
Correct me if I am wrong but the "47" was designed by the Europeans as a better 300 metre ISU iron sight cartridge than the 6BR. With the population restrictions in Europe some of their 300 metre ranges are virtually indoor what with all the safety baffles required.
When I report on a cartridge I am talking down and dirty 40 Celsius humidex (100F), 10 click cross winds, prone with your face in the grass, moisture rising into your face, sweat rolling down into your eyes, fingers so wet you can hardly pull a cartridge out of its box.
If some F Classers want to shoot the 6.5x47 at 1000 yds under those conditions, more power to them.
Bill
Locally I know of no one having a purpose built F Class rifle built in 6.5x47 knowing that the Eastern Canadian Championships being shot on the July 1 long weekend will be at Palma ranges (800, 900, 1000) all three days. I would expect that my 6.5x57AI will be the smallest cartridge there.
The problem/challenge is the 1/2 minute inner ring on all targets world wide. This requires a cartridge with more horsepower than the "47" to fight the wind at those ranges.
Four years ago when Savage brought out the 6BR in its M12 Target Rifles a whole host of local F Classers walked around with diamonds in their eyes dreaming of the Ontario Champion Trophy. When their ears were pinned back at 1000 yds on a windy day they all traded in on the Savage 6.5/284 which have since been rebarrelled with varying degrees of success.
Correct me if I am wrong but the "47" was designed by the Europeans as a better 300 metre ISU iron sight cartridge than the 6BR. With the population restrictions in Europe some of their 300 metre ranges are virtually indoor what with all the safety baffles required.
When I report on a cartridge I am talking down and dirty 40 Celsius humidex (100F), 10 click cross winds, prone with your face in the grass, moisture rising into your face, sweat rolling down into your eyes, fingers so wet you can hardly pull a cartridge out of its box.
If some F Classers want to shoot the 6.5x47 at 1000 yds under those conditions, more power to them.
Bill
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