Query: Brass concentricity?

[SKWERLZ]

I avoid expanders when possible. If I do use one, I dry-lube the inside of the case neck. And I avoid over-sizing the neck no matter what.

I'll chuck a die in the trash before I'll chase a problem like that.

Good practice in my experience^^^^^
Push through certainly an option, it’s pull through, I use em on a stuff like a subsonic thumper and 22arc.

I’m going to upgrade my 22arc dies to my favorite lcd/body die combination soon.

 

[Thor357]

So, if I understand correctly, you're planning to fire 200 rounds down range?

I don't know what your criteria is for 4 different 50 round loads, but that should establish a point of reference at least.

If you're chasing run-out before you've even established an accurate load, then I'd say you definitely have the cart in front of the horse.

And it would be pertinent to know the chambering, rifle, shooting position and yardage.

Well, actually I'm working with a new powder and I'm trying a few things that some folks recommended via a different thread I posted about target results/chrono results. This thread is because someone recommended I check run-out on my ammo so I bought the Hornady one and noticed some anomalies. I'm mainly working on trying to find what works the best with the powder I'm using. My intention is to work out the powder charge and then address concentricity but I checked all 200 and the results were about 90% were in the 0-.0015 range with just a handful in the .002-.003 range and somewhere around 6 or 7 that were in the .005-.007 range that I couldn't fix.
I'm using Starline brass with about 10 firings on them.
My resizing die is a Forster with the ball removed and an LE Wilson mandrel. I also have a Redding S series bushing die but I mainly use the mandrel. My press is a single stage Redding. My seating die is a Forster micrometer die. My neck tension is set to .3065.
I'm shooting .308 through a Savage Axis II Precision bolt action rifle that is in an MDT chassis with a Criterion SS 24" bull barrel with SMKT's seated to just off the lands.
I'm shooting from a bench with a front rest rear bag @ 100 yards ( it's all I have access to at the moment).
If there's more you need to know or have additional advice I'd be happy to know.
Thanks for taking the time to read this!

 

[DShortt]

Well, actually I'm working with a new powder and I'm trying a few things that some folks recommended via a different thread I posted about target results/chrono results. This thread is because someone recommended I check run-out on my ammo so I bought the Hornady one and noticed some anomalies. I'm mainly working on trying to find what works the best with the powder I'm using. My intention is to work out the powder charge and then address concentricity but I checked all 200 and the results were about 90% were in the 0-.0015 range with just a handful in the .002-.003 range and somewhere around 6 or 7 that were in the .005-.007 range that I couldn't fix.
I'm using Starline brass with about 10 firings on them.
My resizing die is a Forster with the ball removed and an LE Wilson mandrel. I also have a Redding S series bushing die but I mainly use the mandrel. My press is a single stage Redding. My seating die is a Forster micrometer die. My neck tension is set to .3065.
I'm shooting .308 through a Savage Axis II Precision bolt action rifle that is in an MDT chassis with a Criterion SS 24" bull barrel with SMKT's seated to just off the lands.
I'm shooting from a bench with a front rest rear bag @ 100 yards ( it's all I have access to at the moment).
If there's more you need to know or have additional advice I'd be happy to know.
Thanks for taking the time to read this!

OK. So now we know what you're trying to accomplish and what with.

What group sizes have you been getting and how many shots per group. Please post best, worst and average. Factory barrel?

Asking because I might have been there and done that.

Literally, no sarcasm intended.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Well, actually I'm working with a new powder and I'm trying a few things that some folks recommended via a different thread I posted about target results/chrono results. This thread is because someone recommended I check run-out on my ammo so I bought the Hornady one and noticed some anomalies. I'm mainly working on trying to find what works the best with the powder I'm using. My intention is to work out the powder charge and then address concentricity but I checked all 200 and the results were about 90% were in the 0-.0015 range with just a handful in the .002-.003 range and somewhere around 6 or 7 that were in the .005-.007 range that I couldn't fix.
I'm using Starline brass with about 10 firings on them.
My resizing die is a Forster with the ball removed and an LE Wilson mandrel. I also have a Redding S series bushing die but I mainly use the mandrel. My press is a single stage Redding. My seating die is a Forster micrometer die. My neck tension is set to .3065.
I'm shooting .308 through a Savage Axis II Precision bolt action rifle that is in an MDT chassis with a Criterion SS 24" bull barrel with SMKT's seated to just off the lands.
I'm shooting from a bench with a front rest rear bag @ 100 yards ( it's all I have access to at the moment).
If there's more you need to know or have additional advice I'd be happy to know.
Thanks for taking the time to read this!

Separate the outliers and shoot them against the “good” ones.
If the outliers don’t shoot use them for foulers.

Tighter throat chambers in barrels are more tolerant of runout according to some pretty well known shooters.

 

[Thor357]

OK. So now we know what you're trying to accomplish and what with.

What group sizes have you been getting and how many shots per group. Please post best, worst and average. Factory barrel?

Asking because I might have been there and done that.

Literally, no sarcasm intended.

When I'm in the "node" I usually get 1/2 to maybe just under 1 MOA with 10 shot groups. I've shot as well as 1/4 MOA on more than one occasion with different powders/brass/bullets. This rifle has been stellar most of the time, just depends on the combo. I also have the same rifle in .223 and it's, as my buddy says, "like cheating, it's just too easy."
Worst is maybe just over 1 MOA and I'd say average is 3/4.
No, I replaced the barrel with a Criterion SS 24" bull barrel. It shot quite well with the factory barrel too.

 

[K22]

Been down the "rabbit hole" also. I guess it may depend on one's precision expectations / shooting discipline. Maybe it's an issue for benchrest shooters. For me, it made absolutely no difference on target at the level I needed to shoot, meaning varmint grade accuracy (i.e., 1/2 to 5/8 moa or thereabouts)

Alignment can be improved by the following: using the "O" ring method described in prior posts, keeping the die and shell holder clean. If you have a conventional F/L die and use an expander, de-capping separately then raising the expander button higher in the die but below the neck sizing portion of the die can aid in alignment.

But it's a hobby, if one likes to experiment with different tools / issues then that's part of one's game. When I had precision problems it was usually due to bedding issues or bullet selection / powder charge.

What I learned in 50+ years of shooting is not to get bogged down in the minutiae of equipment and reloading. You will become a better shooter with structure practice.

 

[DShortt]

When I'm in the "node" I usually get 1/2 to maybe just under 1 MOA with 10 shot groups. I've shot as well as 1/4 MOA on more than one occasion with different powders/brass/bullets. This rifle has been stellar most of the time, just depends on the combo. I also have the same rifle in .223 and it's, as my buddy says, "like cheating, it's just too easy."
Worst is maybe just over 1 MOA and I'd say average is 3/4.
No, I replaced the barrel with a Criterion SS 24" bull barrel. It shot quite well with the factory barrel too.

OK then, nevermind.

I had bad experiences with Savage .30 caliber barrels but if you've replaced it then it's a different situation.

I'll be interested to see how your shooting session goes. I've a .308Win barrel that shoots about as you've described, except it's 1" on average. Never below 3/4". Mine is a Shilen on a Savage 110. Choate stock.

 

[Thor357]

I guess it may depend on one's precision expectations / shooting discipline.

I'm OCD so I try for high precision and accuracy every time I shoot.

Alignment can be improved by the following: using the "O" ring method described in prior posts, keeping the die and shell holder clean. If you have a conventional F/L die and use an expander, de-capping separately then raising the expander button higher in the die but below the neck sizing portion of the die can aid in alignment.

Yep, I incorporate all this but with an LE Wilson mandrel.

But it's a hobby, if one likes to experiment with different tools / issues then that's part of one's game. When I had precision problems it was usually due to bedding issues or bullet selection / powder charge.

My rifle is bedded.
This rifle has shot amazingly with other powders/bullets. I'm currently trying a different powder and different bullets. I'm on my 2nd try with this combo.

What I learned in 50+ years of shooting is not to get bogged down in the minutiae of equipment and reloading. You will become a better shooter with structure practice.

Sorry, my OCDness won't let me stop until I've exhausted every effort. I've replaced barrels because of this not to mention a host of other things. I've made an expensive hobby into a VERY expensive one!

 

[Thor357]

OK then, nevermind.

I had bad experiences with Savage .30 caliber barrels but if you've replaced it then it's a different situation.

Hmm... I've got 5 Savages from 22 to .308's. All have done well with the right combo and some have performed very well for me, just some better than others.

 

[DShortt]

Hmm... I've got 5 Savages from 22 to .308's. All have done well with the right combo and some have performed very well for me, just some better than others.

Any Savage factory barrel in .30 caliber has been .001" to .002" larger at the muzzle than at the chamber. To be specific, that was 6 barrels total so maybe I got unlucky 6 times. (?)

Doubtful.

But anyway, that's why I asked.

They'd shoot 1" at best but seldom over 2" at 100 yards. Plenty good enough for hunting. Not impressive when shooting paper however.

I also shot 10 shot groups.

 

[Thor357]

Any Savage factory barrel in .30 caliber has been .001" to .002" larger at the muzzle than at the chamber. To be specific, that was 6 barrels total so maybe I got unlucky 6 times. (?)

Doubtful.

But anyway, that's why I asked.

They'd shoot 1" at best but seldom over 2" at 100 yards. Plenty good enough for hunting. Not impressive when shooting paper however.

I also shot 10 shot groups.

Bummer!
My first one was a low end one and it would consistently shoot at around 1 MOA-1 1/2, give or take with factory ammo. Once I got better at reloading, it was 1 MOA or less but never better than around 3/4's-5/8's.
My precision Savages are great but I think I can do better because they have done better, just not consistently.
Working on that now. I'm heading to the range tomorrow with a new batch of loads to test.
Oh, and I too shoot 10 shot groups.

 

[DShortt]

Bummer!
My first one was a low end one and it would consistently shoot at around 1 MOA-1 1/2, give or take with factory ammo. Once I got better at reloading, it was 1 MOA or less but never better than around 3/4's-5/8's.
My precision Savages are great but I think I can do better because they have done better, just not consistently.
Working on that now. I'm heading to the range tomorrow with a new batch of loads to test.

Hand loading hasn't made nearly as much difference in. 308Win as with other chamberings. Hence, my question.

I've also found it's unusual to find someone who shoots 10 shot groups and averages them out over 6 months or more. Wind, rain, mirage, heat, cold, bad day, whatever.

Tough conditions.

But. If you aren't honest with yourself then why bother?

 

[Thor357]

I've also found it's unusual to find someone who shoots 10 shot groups and averages them out over 6 months or more.

I don't average them over 6 months per se. I average them per session with whatever powder/bullets I'm using. Comparing different powder/bullet combo's to each other is like comparing apples to tires...I think. I could be wrong because I'm more wrong than I am right...according to my brother!!!

 

[charlie b]

My stock .308 barrel wasn't what I'd call a tack driver either. Took a long time to settle down and then it was very solid under MOA with quite a few 5shot 1/2groups. Most of it's life I was shooting cast bullets and many of those were near or under MOA as well. Finally 'retired' it when I had to stop casting.

A Shilen, Criterion, et al should shoot in the 1/2MOA or less range.

As a test, buy a box of premium ammo and shoot it. That will at least tell you something about how good or bad your handloads are.

 

[Thor357]

As a test, buy a box of premium ammo and shoot it. That will at least tell you something about how good or bad your handloads are.

I've done that from time to time.
I've actually performed a "forensic analysis" on some of the premium ammo by measuring everything on them and in them. You'd be surprised at what I learned!
And once I became better at reloading, my ammo usually out performed the premium ammo. Sometimes by quite a bit, sometimes not by much, if any.

 

[SKWERLZ]

OK then, nevermind.

I had bad experiences with Savage .30 caliber barrels but if you've replaced it then it's a different situation.

I'll be interested to see how your shooting session goes. I've a .308Win barrel that shoots about as you've described, except it's 1" on average. Never below 3/4". Mine is a Shilen on a Savage 110. Choate stock.

Lol
Savage and Choate combination with a a Shilen barrel!
That’s brings back memories.

 

[DShortt]

Lol
Savage and Choate combination with a a Shilen barrel!
That’s brings back memories.

So, how'd you do? 10 shots @100 yds. 6 month average?

My stock .308 barrel wasn't what I'd call a tack driver either. Took a long time to settle down and then it was very solid under MOA with quite a few 5shot 1/2groups. Most of it's life I was shooting cast bullets and many of those were near or under MOA as well. Finally 'retired' it when I had to stop casting.

A Shilen, Criterion, et al should shoot in the 1/2MOA or less range.

As a test, buy a box of premium ammo and shoot it. That will at least tell you something about how good or bad your handloads are.

Been there too. Averages 1".

I thought it was me until I finally bought a 6br with a Borden TPE action. Under 3/8" and no load development first time out.

So......

It's something besides just me.

Edit - I'm hijacking this thread, so I'm gonna be quiet.

 

[SKWERLZ]

So, how'd you do? 10 shots @100 yds. 6 month average?

Been there too. Averages 1".

Depends on which barrel we’re talking about.
I learned a ton with that setup.

 

[SKWERLZ]

So, how'd you do? 10 shots @100 yds. 6 month average?

Been there too. Averages 1".

I thought it was me until I finally bought a 6br with a Borden TPE action. Under 3/8" and no load development first time out.

So......

It's something besides just me.

Edit - I'm hijacking this thread, so I'm gonna be quiet.

That’s 6BR!
That’s cheating!

 

[Straightshooter1]

YIKES!!! Umm...I'd get this if it made me younger, taller, richer and less handsome!!!
Am I chasing another rabbit down a hole again?
Oh, and I'm heading to my buddy's range tomorrow with ammo I made based on your advice!
I made 4 different 50 round loads to try. Wish me luck!
Would you like me to DM you the results?

Let us all know how the results turn out. I'm interested in just what you did and what the results are.

My advise, huh? uh-oh!

200 rounds is sure a lot for load development testing. Just a thought as you head out tomorrow . . . if your shoot dots along a horizontal like as I suggested, if the first 3 shots on a dot are greater than 1 moa apart, STOP, there's no point in shooting more of that load to try and improve because it's already shown you it's not a load that's going to work (assuming you're looking for something under 1 moa).