Help me understand what I am seeing.

[DR_2297]

Never had to measure headspace on any rifle I ever owned. Is it a form of OCD?

No. It’s a way to determine wtf is right and or wrong since the OP is wondering why his FL sized brass is .011” shorter than his fired brass.

There are a million ways to skin a cat. Some ways more correct than others. Either you trust the person who chambered and installed the barrel, or you trust a gauge maker or you trust your die maker.

Personally if all I am firing is ammo I am making dedicated to that one rifle I wouldn’t care if it was a bit long until it was time to sell it.

Go and no go gauges are used at barrel machining and installation as an attribute check that the chamber isn’t too short or too long based on whatever org controls the standard (SAMMI or CIP or…).

 

[swd]

The second reamer as George mentioned has a longer free bore. Many factories re sharpen reamers and the original chamber was probably cut with one that had been re sharpened which might also explain why the chamber was tight. Headspace needs to be checked with go and no go gages. But it’s not all that important if your hand loading. Just back the sizing die off until you have about .002-.003” headspace on a sized case and your GTG.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If I were to purchase a box of commercial rounds that were loaded to SAAMI specs, I would have a headspace of 0.0111". Would you be happy with that?

Not sure where that number came from but headspace and CBTO are two totally different dimensions, altogether. If the same reamer is used, both would change by the same amount. If your ogive is actually longer, they used a different reamer unless they throated it in a separate op, which I highly doubt they did.

I agree that something sounds screwy but unless I'm missing something here, I think it would benefit you to study up on what those measurements actually are, as well as all of the critical measurements used in handloading. Per your OP, I don't see how your numbers are even possible unless they simply used a different reamer that had a longer freebore.

 

[DShortt]

Not sure where that number came from but headspace and CBTO are two totally different dimensions, altogether. If the same reamer is used, both would change by the same amount. If your ogive is actually longer, they used a different reamer unless they throated it in a separate op, which I highly doubt they did.

I agree that something sounds screwy but unless I'm missing something here, I think it would benefit you to study up on what those measurements actually are, as well as all of the critical measurements used in handloading. Per your OP, I don't see how your numbers are even possible unless they simply used a different reamer that had a longer freebore.

I'd still bet that if the original barrel was in fact out of spec, they replaced it in whole from production stock. I very much doubt they'd bother with cutting/rechambering the original barrel.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'd still bet that if the original barrel was in fact out of spec, they replaced it in whole from production stock. I very much doubt they'd bother with cutting/rechambering the original barrel.

I agree. I didn't read the whole thread but was thinking exactly that, too. Still, different reamer is likely if there was indeed .083 difference on his freebore(IIRC)

 

[jackieschmidt]

perhaps the reamer that was used to open the chamber had a longer free bore

^^^^^^^^^

 

[dellet]

If the diameter was off to the .200” line, it was likely off the the length of the reamer.

If the chamber was too small of diameter, it’s possible to increase the diameter, without increasing length. But…….
Every place of contact that is a taper on the cartridge will seat deeper into the chamber.

The distance from case neck to lands will be the same length and taper, but since the diameter is larger to start with, the .219” diameter touch point will be farther from the case neck, or cartridge base.

The bigger problem in the long run is possibly using the wrong diameter to check touch on the ogive. Based on the provided measurements, this is not a SAAMI chamber, or the measurement is being taken in the wrong place.

Good chance it was a reamer sharpened one too many times

 

[Pirate69]

Lots of comments since I last visited. I will have to read them after I post what I have prepared.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions. They have been very helpful in working through my concerns. I have been using a dial caliper since the battery in my digital caliper was dead. I replaced the battery this morning and now have one additional decimal place in my measurements presented below. Measurements were obtained using a Hornady Lock‑N‑Load Comparator.

I did not have a virgin 223 Remington case, but I did have some Freedom Munitions 77 grain HPBTs that were given to me. Freedom advertisers that their cases are unfired, SAAMI spec cases. Let’s assume they are SAAMI spec cases. If you compare the average shoulder datum of the fired cases to the average of the Freedom cases, the difference is 0.0059”. This says the headspace should be about 0.006”. Savage did say the headspace was good.

If you compare the fired cases average to the average for the full-length sized cases, the difference is 0.0128”. Twice the headspace noted above. If the FM cases are at a minimum SAAMI value, it means my Lee resizing die is oversizing the cases. This is surprising since the die is set where the press only lightly cams over at bottom of the stroke.

SAMMI 223 Rem specs

Go gauge 1.4640"

N0 Go gauge 1.4670"

Field gauge 1.4700"

My measurements do not seem to match SAAMI specs. It appears the Hornady bushing is delivering good measurement precision, but the bushing is not exactly accurate for a 223 Remington case. It measures short. The good thing is that the same bushing is used in all measurements, and the error is consistent in all measurements.

So, it looks like, at this point, that the headspace is either about 6/1000” or 13/1000”. Looks like the best way of settling this is to drop a NoGo gauge into the chamber. Stay tuned

This rifle has shot well for me. Most of the time you can count on it being around 0.5 MOA. I have only recently started shooting this rifle with bullets seated into the lands. Prior, I seated bullets around 10/1000” off the lands. I was getting flyers occasionally. Only thing I could figure out, other than it being me, was that I was having a problem with neck tension. Seating into the lands takes care of any concern with neck tension. Attached are some photos with in and out of the lands.

Looks like I have a longer freebore than I had before and will have to live with it. Since I normally shot very close to the lands and with neck sized cases, the rabbit I am chasing is not a great concern. I am only chasing it to understand the rifle and ensure if I ever sell the rifle, it does not have excess headspace.

First photo is about 10/1000" off the lands. Second photo is about 20/1000" into the lands. Third is off the lands and an example of flyers.

 

[ELR LVR]

If you are truly spellbound
and can't adjust your barrel nut to set headspace to your FL sized brass
---
In that even I suggest reading up on how to fireform wildcat cases to your chamber

 

[ELR LVR]

If you compare the fired cases average to the average for the full-length sized cases, the difference is 0.0128”. Twice the headspace noted above. If the FM cases are at a minimum SAAMI value, it means my Lee resizing die is oversizing the cases. This is surprising since the die is set where the press only lightly cams over at bottom of the stroke.

^^^^^^^ Just read your last post -THere's your answer
(Face turns red from repeated frustration of this problem)
***Ok I'm calm again
There is no LAW STATING your shellholder must hit the bottom of the die at the top of upstroke
YOU adjust your die to what is appropriate shoulder bump (NOT USE SHELLHOLDER BUMP)...
...in order to have proper spec brass (IE: min. headspace)
That is why the die is adjustable and has a lock nut
The locknut is also adjustable up and down
Your die is NOT oversizing your brass
-----> YOU are oversizing your brass by screwing it down too far just so you can feel the shellholder bottom out
Unless maybe you are using Lee collet dies, in which case maybe you can still back your die off and shave the stem down so it sizes the neck enough during FL resize. ---
But last time I checked I didn't see Lee made a FL collet die
Only a Collet neck die - which is not a FL die
so if you are using a collet neck die for a FL die (throws hands up and walks away)
maybe use RCBS standard FL die instead if in fact Lee does make a FL collet die
----
We need a thread to explain there is no Law your shellholder HAS TO bottom out against the bottom of the die, this does nothing, it means nothing.
if ANYTHING, it is merely a positive stop to ensure we don't oversize TOO FAR, but is still possible to oversize.
I could probably measure 3 different #4 shellholder heights and I bet at least one will be different
---
There are tolerances in manufacturing things, called out like
1. +/- .002
but can also be
2. +.000 / -.004
3. +.004 / - .000 etc.
so if one goes by #2 and another goes by #3, you then have an added stacked tolerance total of .008"
likely NONE OF THEM hold tolerances in the tenths of thou. it would cost too much, because it takes longer to hold tight tolerances like that, one simply due to heat build up in the equipment, bearings, lubricant fluids etc and ambient air temps.
I used to Mfgr parts held to .0004" for the Govt. that we could only mfgr from 7am to 10 am because otherwise the CNC Equipment would start drifting in tolerances just due to it warming up after morning.
once it got to 80F, thats it, move on to a different project and resume project A in the morning again
otherwise we then would have to go into the saved program and readjust the paramteres again, and if anybody didn't tell anybody they did so, it could get forgotten and we would be F'ed again the next morning assuming all is the same. too chancy for tight tolerance work. not to mention every program adjustment needed a short run again to double check consistency of new tolerances.
IE: Time consuming, IE: Time costs more money.
There is no tight tolerance $100 shellholder
---
Think about this a second
do you really think every Mfgr holds such close tolerances between all of them that every shellholder is the same height?
That every FL sizing die is the same overall length from die to die?
---
You set the parameters by the adjustability in your equipment,
Shellholder bumping is NOT A FUNCTION of the FL sizing process
---
ANSWER: Back your die off, or stop using Lee
(sorry if I got frustrated here, I know there can be some form of confusion in the beginning)
its good to get it straightened out by asking questions
---
if you need shellholder bump, send your shellholder to me and I'll TIG a bump on top of it .011" in height
then you'll have your $100 custom shellholder

 

[Pirate69]

^^^^^^^ Just read your last post -THere's your answer
(Face turns red from repeated frustration of this problem)
***Ok I'm calm again
There is no LAW STATING your shellholder must hit the bottom of the die at the top of upstroke
YOU adjust your die to what is appropriate shoulder bump (NOT USE SHELLHOLDER BUMP)...
...in order to have proper spec brass (IE: min. headspace)
That is why the die is adjustable and has a lock nut
The locknut is also adjustable up and down
Your die is NOT oversizing your brass
-----> YOU are oversizing your brass by screwing it down too far just so you can feel the shellholder bottom out
Unless maybe you are using Lee collet dies, in which case maybe you can still back your die off and shave the stem down so it sizes the neck enough during FL resize. ---
But last time I checked I didn't see Lee made a FL collet die
Only a Collet neck die - which is not a FL die
so if you are using a collet neck die for a FL die (throws hands up and walks away)
maybe use RCBS standard FL die instead if in fact Lee does make a FL collet die
----
We need a thread to explain there is no Law your shellholder HAS TO bottom out against the bottom of the die, this does nothing, it means nothing.
if ANYTHING, it is merely a positive stop to ensure we don't oversize TOO FAR, but is still possible to oversize.
I could probably measure 3 different #4 shellholder heights and I bet at least one will be different
---
There are tolerances in manufacturing things, called out like
1. +/- .002
but can also be
2. +.000 / -.004
3. +.004 / - .000 etc.
so if one goes by #2 and another goes by #3, you then have an added stacked tolerance total of .008"
likely NONE OF THEM hold tolerances in the tenths of thou. it would cost too much, because it takes longer to hold tight tolerances like that, one simply due to heat build up in the equipment, bearings, lubricant fluids etc and ambient air temps.
I used to Mfgr parts held to .0004" for the Govt. that we could only mfgr from 7am to 10 am because otherwise the CNC Equipment would start drifting in tolerances just due to it warming up after morning.
once it got to 80F, thats it, move on to a different project and resume project A in the morning again
otherwise we then would have to go into the saved program and readjust the paramteres again, and if anybody didn't tell anybody they did so, it could get forgotten and we would F'ed again the next morning assuming all is the same. too chancy for tight tolerance work. not to mention every program adjustment needed a short run again to double check consistency of new tolerances.
IE: Time consuming, IE: Time costs more money.
There is no tight tolerance $100 shellholder
---
Think about this a second
do you really think every Mfgr holds such close tolerances between all of them that every shellholder is the same height?
That every FL sizing die is the same overall length from die to die?
---
You set the parameters by the adjustability in your equipment,
Shellholder bumping is NOT A FUNCTION of the FL sizing process
---
ANSWER: Back your die off, or stop using Lee
(sorry if I got frustrated here, I know there can be some form of confusion in the beginning)
its good to get it straightened out by asking questions
---
if you need shellholder bump, send your shellholder to me and I'll TIG a bump on top of it .011" in height
then you'll have your $100 custom shellholder

I think you are thinking that the work I have been doing is the way that I reload. That is not the case. I reload a number of calibers and resizing is done by setting the full-length die such that approximately 3/4 of the neck is resized or I use a collet die if I have purchased one for that caliber. If I do any full-length resizing, it is brass that has been previously fired in someone else's rifle, and I am just making sure it will chamber in my rifle with the first reload. I do not over work my brass.

The only reason I full length sized the brass above was to try to see how much stretch or headspace was possible if someone obtained the rifle and shot it using full length resizing. And also, try to understand why the was an increase in freebore. I am only passing on my observations. I thought they may be interesting, not a source of frustration. I totally agree that the use of Go and NoGo gauges is the best way to check/install a barrel. I will get around to that soon since that will probably be the only way that I will feel comfortable that the rifle Savage serviced was not returned with excess headspace.

 

[Edd]

If you want to bump the shell holder.

https://redding-reloading.com/wp-content/uploads/918-REV-Competition-Shellholder-Set.pdf

 

[dellet]

If you look at SAAMI specs, what you find is that maximum allowable headspace difference between minimum cartridge and maximum chamber is .014”.

Based on the numbers you posted, if the insert is truly .330”, the virgin brass is .005” too short. Not un common in new brass.
Your full length sized brass, is even shorter, again not uncommon. Minimum base to shoulder should be 1.4596”. My guess is your bushing is off. But that’s why it’s a comparator.

The case is growing .012.5 Thats within tolerances.

Minimum chamber bolt face to .330” on the shoulder is 1.4636”. Your brass after a single firing is .003” short of minimum chamber. Not uncommon for brass not to be fully formed in a single firing.

None of the above should raise an eyebrow. What should, is cartridge base to ogive. Back to SAAMI drawings.

Since you did not likely do a chamber cast, this is speculation. You had a diameter problem, most likely that means tight. You can’t re ream a chamber and make it smaller. According to SAAMI, the area between the end of the neck and start of the lands is .224”-.226”. If the original reamer was undersized, that would potentially give you zero free bore.

Opening up the chamber to the proper diameter would give roughly .070” more length base to ogive minimum. Add as much as .015” for length tolerances, 085”. Sound familiar?

 

[DShortt]

OK, so the easiest way to verify the headspace is within spec is to use GO and NO GO gauges.
That still won't tell you exactly what the headspace dimension is. It will only tell you it's within spec.
If the headspace dimension is, in fact, found to be within spec, it sounds like you know how to set your dies to work best within your chamber. If you aren't sure about setting the sizing die, there are an untold number of threads on the Forum already that discuss that ad nauseum, so I'm not going to beat that dead horse again here.

 

[Pirate69]

If you want to bump the shell holder.

https://redding-reloading.com/wp-content/uploads/918-REV-Competition-Shellholder-Set.pdf

Thanks, but I do not want to bump the shell holder.

 

[Pirate69]

OK, so the easiest way to verify the headspace is within spec is to use GO and NO GO gauges.
That still won't tell you exactly what the headspace dimension is. It will only tell you it's within spec.
If the headspace dimension is, in fact, found to be within spec, it sounds like you know how to set your dies to work best within your chamber. If you aren't sure about setting the sizing die, there are an untold number of threads on the Forum already that discuss that ad nauseum, so I'm not going to beat that dead horse again here.

Thanks, yes I know how to set a die to control headspace.

 

[Pirate69]

If you look at SAAMI specs, what you find is that maximum allowable headspace difference between minimum cartridge and maximum chamber is .014”.

Based on the numbers you posted, if the insert is truly .330”, the virgin brass is .005” too short. Not un common in new brass.
Your full length sized brass, is even shorter, again not uncommon. Minimum base to shoulder should be 1.4596”. My guess is your bushing is off. But that’s why it’s a comparator.

The case is growing .012.5 Thats within tolerances.

Minimum chamber bolt face to .330” on the shoulder is 1.4636”. Your brass after a single firing is .003” short of minimum chamber. Not uncommon for brass not to be fully formed in a single firing.

None of the above should raise an eyebrow. What should, is cartridge base to ogive. Back to SAAMI drawings.

Since you did not likely do a chamber cast, this is speculation. You had a diameter problem, most likely that means tight. You can’t re ream a chamber and make it smaller. According to SAAMI, the area between the end of the neck and start of the lands is .224”-.226”. If the original reamer was undersized, that would potentially give you zero free bore.

Opening up the chamber to the proper diameter would give roughly .070” more length base to ogive minimum. Add as much as .015” for length tolerances, 085”. Sound familiar?

This makes sense to me. You may have described exactly what is happening.

Now here is what I think I can do. I think I can seat 69 grain and greater bullets to reach the lands and still have the bullet seated at least one bullet diameter for bullet support. I am concerned that I may not get as close to the lands as I would like with bullets less than 69 grains. For my purposes, this is a potential limitation of the use of the rifle for my purposes. I currently do not shoot anything less than a 69 grain Nosler.

As to headspace. I think I can control that by adjusting my full length die or using my collet die and bumping back the shoulder when needed. I do not see this as being a problem.

Now back to my original post; "Before I contact Savage, I want to make sure that I have issues that need to be discussed. I would greatly appreciate your comments and recommendations.". I think we have verified that there is an issue. Now I need to decide about contacting Savage. The only thing they can do is replace the barrel. The current barrel is a shooter in my mind (to the best of my ability). There is no guarantee a new barrel will shot as well.

Thanks again to all that have contributed comments and recommendations.

 

[swd]

I wouldn't hold my breath on any factory ammunition or brass being in Saami spec. And even if it is where does it fall in the specs?? If you suspect the head space is long you need a no go gage. There's no two ways about it. Without a known standard you are just hoping and guessing. I bet if you put a want add in the classified section you can get a no go gage pretty cheap and put an end to all your guessing about dimensions. Or just back your die off the desired amount headspace and don't worry about it any more.

 

[dellet]

I’d probably just look at the ads for the rifle and see if it says safe for 5.56 ammo.

Many manufacturers chamber closer to 5.56 specs than 223 for safety reasons. I think you’ll find the base to lands measurement you have now is more likely 5.56.

 

[Pirate69]

Thanks all. Next step is the NoGo gauge and then maybe a discussion with Savage. I had major back surgery on 10/20/25. Two rods, four spacers and eight screws. Compounded my problem with a fall on 1/15/26 that resulted in a compression fracture of the back. Currently wearing a solid molded back brass to support the back while the fracture heals. I am moving slow and only short distances. The rounds I shot recently was an adventure.