Load Development Question .308 - Fliers

[Webster]

Rifle is R700, Faxon 22" M24 profile barrel, 1-10 twist, .090 freebore, Timney Elite Hunter Trigger set at 1.5#, Vortex 6x24, MDT field chassis. Shoots at/under 1 MOA at 100 yards with factory Federal GMM 168 gr SMK.

I'm working on ladder starting with 43.0 gr of Varget and going up to 46.0 gr, 168 gr SMK, Federal brass (annealed, deburred, chamfered, within spec on length), Federal 210 primers, COAL of 2.86", CBTO of 2.263" at .020" off the lands. Headspace checked with the LE Wilson gauge.

Shooting off a bench at an open range, 100 yards, 5 shot groups, cooling barrel in between shots. I'm starting with a fouled barrel. I do not have a chronograph.

This is my first attempt at reloading; I've been at it for a few weeks.

Every time I shoot 43.0 gr, I feel like I have made 5 good shots, but I inevitably have a flier that's about 1" away. I pull shots sometimes, but I don't think I pulled any of these. Any thoughts on whether this is indicative of a load that I should pursue or de-select? FYI - rifle shoots really well with 45.1 and 45.4 grains of Varget but I'm still intrigued by the tight 4 shots on 43.0.


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I never had flyers. Is it the 5th shot that's always out.? If it's something to do with the gun I would think it wouldn't always be 1 out. The rifle cannot count. You have to be totally aware of everything your body is doing. Hold the rifle properly. The butt should be in the hollow off of the shoulder bone. Otherwise the stock will tend to roll off the shoulder bone on recoil. The rifle starts recoiling as soon as the bullet starts moving out of the case. Do you have good the trigger release. After 50 years of shooting I am still have trouble pulling the trigger properly. Can you see the cross hair move on the target when the gun goes off? You cannot if you flinch. When the gun goes off you need to keep every muscle in your body relaxed and motionless until the bullet leaves the barrel.

 

[K22]

Yes.



I'm not noticing any.



I don't think there's any consistency with which shot is a flier.

I'm shooting decent groups with more powder; 44.2, 45.1, and 45.4 are my most promising, with sub-MOA for 5 shot groups at 100 yards, but nothing approaching .5 MOA like the 43.0 is, minus the fliers.



I do the same - I finish the 5 shot group each time. The pictures above with 43.0 are all 5 shot groups.



I have found that the groups really loosen up with a hot barrel, so I've been waiting 5 minutes in between shots. I'm in Texas and it's been in the 90's when I'm shooting, so it takes a while to cool down.

I could try waiting in between groups and not coming off the gun in between shots; I would not be surprised if my issues are caused by not being consistent behind the gun.



Last time I shot a 5 shot group with it, it was sub-MOA for 5 shots.

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It's a Remage barrel, M24 profile.

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That group says to me that it is not the load or anything mechanically adverse with the rifle.

In my experience, it is very difficult to shoot consistent (all the time) 1/2 or sub 1/2 moa groups for most of us even with the best equipment.

I've shot some groups in the sub 1/4 moa with some of my precision varmint rifles but I cannot do it on demand. Everything has to be perfect, environmentally and mentally and this is with tuned reloads and match barrels properly bedded.

 

[Will Henry]

I've shot, and still shoot,308's quite a bit. In the first place, if I have a target style 308 which shoots worse that 3/4 moa, I'm pretty mad at it. My first response to your accuracy problems would be, "It's you". This, because when I have similar issues, it is often me. Generally speaking, if I load a decent .308 with 41 grains of IMR 4895 and a Sierra MK, I expect 1/2moa or less. If I don't get that, I, as the rifle shooter or I, as the rifle builder, have done something wrong.
Varget is always a decent choice, but Varget has NEVER ended up being my best load. Decent enough, but not the best.
I'm working with a HV 308 right now. Whenever I get a flier, I can usually attribute it to a bag error on my part. This is really tied to follow through. The error occurs after the trigger trips but before the cartridge fires.
There is always the possibility of a minor bedding issue as well, but I don't think this is the case here. WH

 

[Doom]

Your COAL of 2.860" is kinda long. I shoot the 168 in a 700 with a lot of freebore and 2.800" works well. I suspect that is about what the FGMM is. The 168 handles jump very well. 43 gr of Varget is about right so one thing may be some inconsistency in ignition/burn. You might try making that the powder is packed the same when loading the rifle (tapped to base).

To be honest I suspect the issue lies in the shooter not the load. One issue with shooting suppressed with little recoil its hard to tell if the issue is in setup because the feedback is reduced. I would shoot this string without letting the barrel cool more than about 30 sec and don't come off the rifle but hold your setup. I also mirror @K22's comments.

EDIT: If those shots are part of a round robin OCW test (One shot of each load on a separate target) then moving to the next load I would bet the issue is setup consistency.

 

[Webster]

I've shot, and still shoot,308's quite a bit. In the first place, if I have a target style 308 which shoots worse that 3/4 moa, I'm pretty mad at it. My first response to your accuracy problems would be, "It's you". This, because when I have similar issues, it is often me. Generally speaking, if I load a decent .308 with 41 grains of IMR 4895 and a Sierra MK, I expect 1/2moa or less. If I don't get that, I, as the rifle shooter or I, as the rifle builder, have done something wrong.
Varget is always a decent choice, but Varget has NEVER ended up being my best load. Decent enough, but not the best.
I'm working with a HV 308 right now. Whenever I get a flier, I can usually attribute it to a bag error on my part. This is really tied to follow through. The error occurs after the trigger trips but before the cartridge fires.
There is always the possibility of a minor bedding issue as well, but I don't think this is the case here. WH

I shoot with a Harris bipod on a bench. Used to use a homemade heavy rest. After I am setup on the bench I slide the rifle back and forth about an inch. If the cross hair doesn't move vertically the v-notch on the rear bag is not lined up. Rotate the bag a little until the cr moves vertically. May not be the best setup for shooting tiny groups but it's varmint hunting rifle. I normally shoot groups about .400: and round.
I used to shoot small groups with my 7mm Rem Mag. so I guess I don't flinch.

 

[Presscollector]

I'll add the Vortex Venom scope, Mine is new and the first "quality" Vortex I have owned. This morning, I found eye placement behind the scope is super critical or the point of impact will be off by the amount your groups show. Also sun glare from the barrel really effects what I see through the scope.

 

[DShortt]

These were 3 different sessions. Today the wind was negligible; the range is cut into the side of a hill, protected from the wind. Temps in the 80's climbing into the 90's.

There was virtually no wind on the 27th.

I don't have notes on wind on the 26th.

Well, speaking from a position of learning the hard way. If you are not using any wind flags at all, I'd bet a steak dinner things are much worse on the range regarding wind than you think. Add in an occasional form/hold inconsistency and that's what your targets will look like.

 

[Webster]

Rifle is R700, Faxon 22" M24 profile barrel, 1-10 twist, .090 freebore, Timney Elite Hunter Trigger set at 1.5#, Vortex 6x24, MDT field chassis. Shoots at/under 1 MOA at 100 yards with factory Federal GMM 168 gr SMK.

I'm working on ladder starting with 43.0 gr of Varget and going up to 46.0 gr, 168 gr SMK, Federal brass (annealed, deburred, chamfered, within spec on length), Federal 210 primers, COAL of 2.86", CBTO of 2.263" at .020" off the lands. Headspace checked with the LE Wilson gauge.

Shooting off a bench at an open range, 100 yards, 5 shot groups, cooling barrel in between shots. I'm starting with a fouled barrel. I do not have a chronograph.

This is my first attempt at reloading; I've been at it for a few weeks.

Every time I shoot 43.0 gr, I feel like I have made 5 good shots, but I inevitably have a flier that's about 1" away. I pull shots sometimes, but I don't think I pulled any of these. Any thoughts on whether this is indicative of a load that I should pursue or de-select? FYI - rifle shoots really well with 45.1 and 45.4 grains of Varget but I'm still intrigued by the tight 4 shots on 43.0.


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Any reasonable wind won't move the bullet that far out of a group at 100 yrds. I would think wind would move the bullet left or right maybe 1/4" not 1 inch downward.

 

[bulletpruf]

Any reasonable wind won't move the bullet that far out of a group at 100 yrds. I would think wind would move the bullet left or right maybe 1/4" not 1 inch downward.

Ok, thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

Well, speaking from a position of learning the hard way. If you are not using any wind flags at all, I'd bet a steak dinner things are much worse on the range regarding wind than you think. Add in an occasional form/hold inconsistency and that's what your targets will look like.

Ok, there are no wind flags at the ranges where I shoot. At least none that are visible from the firing line.

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

I'll add the Vortex Venom scope, Mine is new and the first "quality" Vortex I have owned. This morning, I found eye placement behind the scope is super critical or the point of impact will be off by the amount your groups show. Also sun glare from the barrel really effects what I see through the scope.

The barrel is generally shaded, so glare from the barrel shouldn't be an issue. I'm working on my position; I wouldn't be surprised if inconsistence had something to do with it.

 

[bulletpruf]

Your COAL of 2.860" is kinda long. I shoot the 168 in a 700 with a lot of freebore and 2.800" works well. I suspect that is about what the FGMM is. The 168 handles jump very well. 43 gr of Varget is about right so one thing may be some inconsistency in ignition/burn. You might try making that the powder is packed the same when loading the rifle (tapped to base).

From what I can tell, most folks are recommending about .020" off the lands, and that's why I'm at 2.860". The FGMM is 2.800".

To be honest I suspect the issue lies in the shooter not the load. One issue with shooting suppressed with little recoil its hard to tell if the issue is in setup because the feedback is reduced. I would shoot this string without letting the barrel cool more than about 30 sec and don't come off the rifle but hold your setup. I also mirror @K22's comments.

I'm inclined to think it's more the shooter than the load, too.

EDIT: If those shots are part of a round robin OCW test (One shot of each load on a separate target) then moving to the next load I would bet the issue is setup consistency.

I'm doing 5 shots at each load at the same target and then moving on.

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

I've shot, and still shoot,308's quite a bit. In the first place, if I have a target style 308 which shoots worse that 3/4 moa, I'm pretty mad at it. My first response to your accuracy problems would be, "It's you". This, because when I have similar issues, it is often me. Generally speaking, if I load a decent .308 with 41 grains of IMR 4895 and a Sierra MK, I expect 1/2moa or less. If I don't get that, I, as the rifle shooter or I, as the rifle builder, have done something wrong.
Varget is always a decent choice, but Varget has NEVER ended up being my best load. Decent enough, but not the best.
I'm working with a HV 308 right now. Whenever I get a flier, I can usually attribute it to a bag error on my part. This is really tied to follow through. The error occurs after the trigger trips but before the cartridge fires.
There is always the possibility of a minor bedding issue as well, but I don't think this is the case here. WH

Ok, are we talking about 3 shots at 3/4 MOA or 5?

Can you be more specific on follow through and bag error?

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

That group says to me that it is not the load or anything mechanically adverse with the rifle.

I tend to agree with you.

In my experience, it is very difficult to shoot consistent (all the time) 1/2 or sub 1/2 moa groups for most of us even with the best equipment.

That's what I'm hearing as well, but I still think I can shoot better than I am currently.

I've shot some groups in the sub 1/4 moa with some of my precision varmint rifles but I cannot do it on demand. Everything has to be perfect, environmentally and mentally and this is with tuned reloads and match barrels properly bedded.

Gotcha.

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

I never had flyers. Is it the 5th shot that's always out.? If it's something to do with the gun I would think it wouldn't always be 1 out. The rifle cannot count. You have to be totally aware of everything your body is doing. Hold the rifle properly. The butt should be in the hollow off of the shoulder bone. Otherwise the stock will tend to roll off the shoulder bone on recoil. The rifle starts recoiling as soon as the bullet starts moving out of the case. Do you have good the trigger release. After 50 years of shooting I am still have trouble pulling the trigger properly. Can you see the cross hair move on the target when the gun goes off? You cannot if you flinch. When the gun goes off you need to keep every muscle in your body relaxed and motionless until the bullet leaves the barrel.

The flier is not consistent, i.e., not always the 1st, 5th, etc.

The butt is in the hollow of my shoulder.

My trigger squeeze is pretty good, I think, put not perfect. I am always surprised when the gun goes off, so I'm not jerking the trigger and I'm not flinching.

Can clarify what you mean about trigger release?

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

Sounds like you have most of the bases covered.

I know this is not popular in today's world, but I also only use Hoppes 9 and / or Shooter's Choice with a bronze brush and clean about every 50 or 60 round or so. All my rifles shoot to varmint level (1/2 to 5/8 moa) accuracy) if I do my part, wind and mirage notwithstanding. More importantly for a hunter, I do not have to fire fouling shots. My clean and cold bore shots are within my desired POI, an important consideration for a hunter because normally, it's the first shot that is the money shot.

I don't think mirage is an issue with the groups you posted since, at least in my experience, it produces the same effect on a string and usually high right or high left on a heavy boil. Wind is the real devil I deal with it since it swirls, change direction, and is variable at the places I shoot. Mirage boil and surrounding brush can help you see the wind effects. Wind flags are another aid. I've been shooting for about 60 years now and I have never quite mastered the wind issue.

When the barrel heats up, I'm often shooting strings that go high right.

I too am an experienced shooter, but I will and can, on occasion, push a shot and create a flyer from the other shots. Not necessarily saying this is an issue with you, but even experienced shooters are not immune to pulling a shot.

Yeah, I think the fliers are me doing something that I'm not aware of.

Best wishes in sorting this out.

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

Eliminate the pieces of brass that are giving you fliers.

Thanks for the input.

 

[bulletpruf]

HAVE YOU MEASURED ALL YOUR FINISHED SEATING DEPTHS ON EVERY ROUND? ARE YOU GETTING INCONSISTENT SEATING DEPTHS ON FINISHED ROUNDS? IF SO CAN SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY BE JAMMED?

After I seat, I measure the CBTO for each and every round, and they're generally quite close. If there's any variation, it's the occasional one that's a bit shorter than I wanted. I don't have any that are longer than my goal CBTO.

Thanks

 

[bulletpruf]

If your .020 off the lands I hope youve got an inline seater. Doug

I'm using a regular RCBS sizing die - setting it up using an LE Wilson gauge - and RCBS seating die. I'm decapping with a dedicated die. Hand priming setup is Frankford Arsenal.

thanks

 

[DShortt]

Ok, there are no wind flags at the ranges where I shoot. At least none that are visible from the firing line.

Thanks

You should think about bringing your own. Doesn't need to be expensive or complicated to start. A piece of Surveyors Tape on a stick about 4' off the ground at 50 and 100 yards is better than nothing to begin with. You'll have an idea about what is going on at the bench if you just notice.