I'm trying to find out what a bullet like the Hornady .355 100 grain FMJ will do loaded for a Ruger PC 9mm at maximum published powder charges, where the velocity can easily increase by 300-400 FPS compared to the usual 4 inch pistol barrel used in the published data. I know that plated bullets are more prone to separate at speeds above what the manufacturer recommends, but Hornady doesn't publish maximum recommended velocity for this bullet. I just wrote them to ask and figure I'd ask here as well.
Maximum velocities of 9mm FMJ projectiles before jacket/core separation?
- Thread starter Timmis2
- Start date
I'm testing Barnes TAC-XP 80g 380-auto copper bullets for 9mm.
It's rated for up to 3000fps.
Working up load-data to get around 2000fps out of Ruger PC 9 and Hi-point 995TS w/16.5" barrels.
Starting with this found from Google Search:
VV 3N37 - OAL 1.160
XD9 4" barrel
8 grains = 1585 FPS
XD9 5.71" barrel
8.7 grains = 1800 FPS
Gonna start with 8.7gr loading to see how it goes with carbine barrel.
It's rated for up to 3000fps.
Working up load-data to get around 2000fps out of Ruger PC 9 and Hi-point 995TS w/16.5" barrels.
Starting with this found from Google Search:
VV 3N37 - OAL 1.160
XD9 4" barrel
8 grains = 1585 FPS
XD9 5.71" barrel
8.7 grains = 1800 FPS
Gonna start with 8.7gr loading to see how it goes with carbine barrel.
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GotRDid
Gold $$ Contributor
PCC Data please, Kind Sir.
mmcu
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm not 100% sure what data you're asking for.
The information I provided is Hornady's published maximum velocity for their 100 grain FMJ bullet, which I thought was what was being asked by the OP.
Perhaps I misunderstood the question that he was asking.
Rwfish
Silver $$ Contributor
No PPC data but I do know for USPSA Major power factor a 115g 9mm major is running out of a 5” barrel @ 1500fps with no issue using jacketed bullets. I’ve run Hornady, Precision Delta and Montana Gold H.P.’s with no issues. Plated, as you noted does have issues. Coated such as Blue Bullets and SNS have shown no issues but I do see residuals from the hot charge in the comp so require more frequent cleaning. Again, not PPC, but tells you what to expect. You need to insure you have a good crimp as any bullet setback is disastrous…. Brass inspection is a must…
GotRDid
Gold $$ Contributor
MMCU, I was hoping you might have a source from Hornady for the Pistol Caliber Carbine data. I have worked on subsonic data with my suppressors in my Colt NATO Carbine and Beretta PMX. Now I’m looking for the upper end of capabilities with same Carbines for very high velocity loading for the Coyotes threatening a Friend’s Goat herd.
Still using a can, but now with a thermal and was hoping to flatten the trajectory to minimize drop at max distances of 100 yds.
Rural, so supersonic crack of the bullet will go unnoticed, and as they say, if the Yote heard the shot, he wasn’t the target.
.
Did not want to destroy a bullet and risk educating a predator.
Still using a can, but now with a thermal and was hoping to flatten the trajectory to minimize drop at max distances of 100 yds.
Rural, so supersonic crack of the bullet will go unnoticed, and as they say, if the Yote heard the shot, he wasn’t the target.
.Did not want to destroy a bullet and risk educating a predator.
There is no PCC data that I know of, and given the amount of Ruger PC 9mm owners now, I hope some are published someday and soon. I am going to be working up a load for my Ruger PC 9mm using a 56gr Inceptor ARX .355 projectile soon, using Hodgdon's published data for the 65gr Inceptor ARX for 9mm with CFE Pistol. I'm not the first to do this, if you Google "56gr ARX 9mm" you'll find a reddit post with Chrono data through a 16 inch barrel (an AR9 platform though). The bullet length of the 56gr is 0.510". The bullet length for 65gr is 0.600". If I seat the 56gr at the same seating depth as the 65gr published load data, the COAL will be 1.065" which is short, but not shorter than several other self-defense loads/projectiles Hodgdon publishes. Reddit guy recorded 2170FPS average at maximum powder charge with CFE Pistol. If pressures remain constant regardless of barrel length, the pressure should be around 33,000 PSI (below +P pressures)MMCU, I was hoping you might have a source from Hornady for the Pistol Caliber Carbine data. I have worked on subsonic data with my suppressors in my Colt NATO Carbine and Beretta PMX. Now I’m looking for the upper end of capabilities with same Carbines for very high velocity loading for the Coyotes threatening a Friend’s Goat herd.
Still using a can, but now with a thermal and was hoping to flatten the trajectory to minimize drop at max distances of 100 yds.
Rural, so supersonic crack of the bullet will go unnoticed, and as they say, if the Yote heard the shot, he wasn’t the target.
Did not want to destroy a bullet and risk educating a predator.
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I believe there is a simple reason that you’re not finding the PPC data on max velocity of 9mm … it’s a pistol cartridge. Everyone bought theirs to shoot pistol ammo through it.
Word of Caution - majority of rifles made for shooting 9mm are direct blow back. The extra velocity that you are seeking will be a trade off with additional wear on your rifle’s components, which were designed for pistol loads. If your using a bolt action or single shot breaking breach action then less moving parts and more robust chamber/action would be a better test platform. If you start playing with stretching the COAL to make room for more powder make certain that bullet still has a decent jump so you avoid a pressure spike from jammed bullet.
You probably won’t be able to separate the copper jacket at velocities that you might achieve with 9mm case capacity… you are more likely to damage your rifle‘s components while “experimenting”.
Wear eye protection…
Word of Caution - majority of rifles made for shooting 9mm are direct blow back. The extra velocity that you are seeking will be a trade off with additional wear on your rifle’s components, which were designed for pistol loads. If your using a bolt action or single shot breaking breach action then less moving parts and more robust chamber/action would be a better test platform. If you start playing with stretching the COAL to make room for more powder make certain that bullet still has a decent jump so you avoid a pressure spike from jammed bullet.
You probably won’t be able to separate the copper jacket at velocities that you might achieve with 9mm case capacity… you are more likely to damage your rifle‘s components while “experimenting”.
Wear eye protection…
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Not sure that the extra velocity achieved from a longer barrel equates to additional wear on components if the pressures remain a constant regardless of barrel length. I suppose a +P and +P+ would cause additional wear in both pistol and PCC's, or if you choose a projectile whose core separates in the barrel when pushed faster than what most pistols achieve, but this brings us around to the original question...if a Hornady .355 100gr FMJ has a published maximum velocity recommendation so one could avoid core separation from high velocity. If fine print says 1300 FPS, then I would look for projectiles that are proven to be stable at higher velocities, which some FMJ's are said to do such as XTP's, and copper solids such as Lehigh's.
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The Ruger PC 9mm is rated for +P 9mm pistol cartridges, but I would not reload strictly +P for it.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
Basically you’re going to have to go old school with PCC loads and do some testing and calculating instead of ready made loads. It’s kind of the difference between a chef and a cook. One knows how to create a hand load, one knows how to assemble cartridges according to recipes. With that said there are some things you can use as guidance.
No light bullets, but predicted and actual velocities for barrels of various lengths.
www.ballisticsbytheinch.com
Other indicators would be to look at bullets used for 357 Sig. there is probably a reason the FMJ bullets are not listed for 1700 fps velocity. Even in a slower twist.
Something else I’ll say again, you need to look at actual ballistics of the lighter bullets. Most of the time at the lower velocities you’re going to be shooting, higher speed doesn’t help at all past about 50 yards. Pick your 90 grain or less bullet add 200 fps over a 110 gran bullet and compare velocity, drop and retained energy at 100 yards. The lighter bullets shed velocity so fast that they are almost pointless to use if knock down power is a factor.
Something else I’ll one really needs to come out with a PCC in 357 Sig, 9 mm is not worth the effort. The velocity increase that you get with the lighter bullets, just doesn’t provide any knockdown energy.
No light bullets, but predicted and actual velocities for barrels of various lengths.
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results
(statement of intent)
Other indicators would be to look at bullets used for 357 Sig. there is probably a reason the FMJ bullets are not listed for 1700 fps velocity. Even in a slower twist.
Something else I’ll say again, you need to look at actual ballistics of the lighter bullets. Most of the time at the lower velocities you’re going to be shooting, higher speed doesn’t help at all past about 50 yards. Pick your 90 grain or less bullet add 200 fps over a 110 gran bullet and compare velocity, drop and retained energy at 100 yards. The lighter bullets shed velocity so fast that they are almost pointless to use if knock down power is a factor.
Something else I’ll one really needs to come out with a PCC in 357 Sig, 9 mm is not worth the effort. The velocity increase that you get with the lighter bullets, just doesn’t provide any knockdown energy.
Yes - achieve higher velocities with a longer barrel up to a point when bullet drag (friction between bullet and barrel) starts slowing it down a touch.
You are talking about significant increasing the powder charge to achieve velocity well beyond manufacturers’ max loads. Factory ammo, standard velocity or +P, is below what has been discussed above. Regardless of barrel length, these “hot” loads also have greater pressure. Your firearm will be absorbing this additional force. Unlike an AR15 that only utilizes a small portion of the gas to operate the action, majority of PCC’s including AR9 are direct blow back (100%). Hot loads will just beats up the action and wears out parts prematurely… and may provide marginal improvements in performance. Test away but be cautious as you dial up charges with pistol powder. Use new brass to reduce risk of case rupture from unseen split or extractor perforation.
OR… Look at this as an opportunity for you to buy a new firearm chambered in a rifle caliber that can go slow and faster without concern and a 300BO sounds like what you need. Perfect timing with 4th July Sales everywhere!!!
You are talking about significant increasing the powder charge to achieve velocity well beyond manufacturers’ max loads. Factory ammo, standard velocity or +P, is below what has been discussed above. Regardless of barrel length, these “hot” loads also have greater pressure. Your firearm will be absorbing this additional force. Unlike an AR15 that only utilizes a small portion of the gas to operate the action, majority of PCC’s including AR9 are direct blow back (100%). Hot loads will just beats up the action and wears out parts prematurely… and may provide marginal improvements in performance. Test away but be cautious as you dial up charges with pistol powder. Use new brass to reduce risk of case rupture from unseen split or extractor perforation.
OR… Look at this as an opportunity for you to buy a new firearm chambered in a rifle caliber that can go slow and faster without concern and a 300BO sounds like what you need. Perfect timing with 4th July Sales everywhere!!!
jrb06
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree with what several are saying that a blowback PCC if you start to push them hard will cause problems such as feeding and ejecting unless you spend time and parts on getting it tuned right. There is a lot of PCC shooters in USPSA that have worked out the kinks over the last 5 years and the big thing is delayed blowback roller systems. If you start loading it hot the bolt starts and tries to open before the pressure has dropped enough and is then trying to rip the case out along with spitting crap back at you.
As a reference to max velocities for .355 projectiles here is a little info on the 9x25 Dillon which was a 10MM necked down to 9mm.
The 9x25 Dillon cartridge is known for its high velocity, achieving speeds typically between 1700 and 2100 ft/s with standard bullet weights. For example, a 90-grain Gold Dot JHP can reach 2100 ft/s, while a 125-grain FMJ-FP Match can reach 1700 ft/s, according to Wikipedia. Some handloaders have reported velocities exceeding 2000 ft/s with lighter 90-95 grain bullets.
As a reference to max velocities for .355 projectiles here is a little info on the 9x25 Dillon which was a 10MM necked down to 9mm.
The 9x25 Dillon cartridge is known for its high velocity, achieving speeds typically between 1700 and 2100 ft/s with standard bullet weights. For example, a 90-grain Gold Dot JHP can reach 2100 ft/s, while a 125-grain FMJ-FP Match can reach 1700 ft/s, according to Wikipedia. Some handloaders have reported velocities exceeding 2000 ft/s with lighter 90-95 grain bullets.
Nobody has suggested in this thread to go above and beyond maximum published loads to achieve higher velocity. If you are referring to the "reddit guy" mentioned above who hit 2170 FPS in his AR9 with the 56gr ARX projectile, he used published data and worked up to the maximum powder charge and recorded his velocity (7.3 grains CFE Pistol) using a slightly shorter/lighter projectile (the 56gr Inceptor ARX vs the 65gr Inceptor ARX). In theory, he probably could have increased the powder charge a little and still remained close to 33,000 PSI if the seating depths remained the same since the 56gr is 8% lighter than the 65gr. If you know anything about the Inceptor ARX 56 and 65 grain, they are identical in profile other than the 56gr is .09" shorter in bullet length.Yes - achieve higher velocities with a longer barrel up to a point when bullet drag (friction between bullet and barrel) starts slowing it down a touch.
You are talking about significant increasing the powder charge to achieve velocity well beyond manufacturers’ max loads. Factory ammo, standard velocity or +P, is below what has been discussed above. Regardless of barrel length, these “hot” loads also have greater pressure. Your firearm will be absorbing this additional force. Unlike an AR15 that only utilizes a small portion of the gas to operate the action, majority of PCC’s including AR9 are direct blow back (100%). Hot loads will just beats up the action and wears out parts prematurely… and may provide marginal improvements in performance. Test away but be cautious as you dial up charges with pistol powder. Use new brass to reduce risk of case rupture from unseen split or extractor perforation.
OR… Look at this as an opportunity for you to buy a new firearm chambered in a rifle caliber that can go slow and faster without concern and a 300BO sounds like what you need. Perfect timing with 4th July Sales everywhere!!!
Attachments
Not sure where you sourced that, but Hornady just emailed me this answer (see attached)
Attachments
mmcu
Gold $$ Contributor
I think there may be a difference between muzzle velocity range and the question of what velocity will the jacket and core potentially separate. The 750-1300 number in the manual may be more of a reference to typical velocities in published 380 loads, but I will reply to Hornady with this info and see if their answer changes.
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