R700 223 Wylde/80.5 Berger/N540

[kyotekiller25]

Took my R700 223 Wylde with Bartlein HV 28" 8T and .080" FB out this morning and did a quick 9 shot ladder at 300 yards. Get an idea of pressure/velocity and find the upper node.

80.5g Bergers, approx .020 off, COAL 2.485", N540, Rem 7.5 and 2x fired Lapua brass. Shoulders bumped .002" and neck tension also .002"

It left me with more questions than answers, and didn't really show anything definitive in my opinion. The overall group wasn't bad, about 1 MOA for all 9 shots, but no real correlation to velocity/impacts either. Also, the jump in velocity of 70fps from 24.1 (2876) to 24.3 (2946) had me thinking I was around max, but there were no obvious signs of pressure anywhere. The jump from 24.3 to 24.5 was pretty normal again at 35fps. Not sure if I should creep up in .1g increments to find max with the velocity I'm already at, but I have a feeling there might be a node at that 24.5 (2980) area.

I also had something super odd happen and I can't explain it or figure it out. While trying to get my seating depths figured out, I had 3 extra rounds all loaded at 23.5 Only difference was 1 was really short at 2.4" and the other 2 were pretty dang close to where they were suppose to be at around 2.480". I figured I'd use the shortest one for a cold bore and see where it impacted at 300 and get a good zero to go off. Velocity read 2811fps. Ok no problems there. So I shoot the 9 shot ladder and the 23.5 charge showed 2829fps. OK still doing fine. Finished up the ladder and still had those extra 2 cartridges loaded at I decided to use them up on the 500 yard gong and get some more numbers from the garmin. I was shocked when the 1st read 3063fps. No hard bolt lift, cases look fine, primer looked fine, so I shot the last one and it was 3053fps. Again, no obvious signs of pressure. But my main concern and question here is how on earth was there a 225fps discrepancy in velocity with those 2 shots at 23.5 from the previous 2 at 23.5? I individually weighed each charge on a balance beam and I'm certain the Garmin is ok.

I was shooting for 2950fps with no pressure, as that seems about right for an 80g bullet and 28" barrel. I'm thinking 3050fps is definitely over pressure, even though I'm not seeing the tall tale signs. And I'm not even totally sure what to think of those 2 rounds that hit 3050fps at that low charge weight anyway.

Anyway I'd love to hear your guys thoughts and where you would go from here? Still better than a good day at work, but still a little frustrated also...

Target dot is 2"

 

[Tireguy]

N540 plays best with CCI-450 primers. Conduct your ladder test with 450s and I would venture to say that your ladder test will significantly improve and you'll find that load your looking for.

If you are truly trying to find the upper node with your configuration, you need to run moly. When you combine N540, 450s and moly, it will be right as you get to the higher end of the loading ladder that your groups will signficantly shrink and all the shots will be on top of each other.

FWIW I've been shooting N540 on and off for over 20yrs.

 

[dusterdave173]

I run the 80.5 at 2710 in my 223 26 in barrel with varget
It 100% hammers! 2-3 inch at 600 in reasonable conditions and last month I shot a 1.076 group
It is one ragged hole at 100 yds
Maybe just maybe try and slow that load down?
Over and over I find lower speed loads do better for me--the advantage of speed sounds good in a discussion but at the range often times can't hold up to the performance of a well tuned lower node
I find about 020 off works well.

 

[jelenko]

One shot at each powder charge won't tell you much. Of course you're going to get a dispersion.

That said, there should be a couple/three shots that would be closer together with just .2 gr difference in powder. The 24.1. 24.3 and 24.5 look to be about a 1" group. At 300 yards that's a bit less than 1/3 MOA. I'd follow up with three shot groups at each of those charges. If they all worked out, I'd try 10 at 24.3 to confirm it's the center of the node.
You could then test seating depth at that charge.
That said, if I got 1/3 MOA groups I'd be more than happy. [I compete in 'cross the course' - 1/2 MOA groups are great for our targets]

 

[kyotekiller25]

N540 plays best with CCI-450 primers. Conduct your ladder test with 450s and I would venture to say that your ladder test will significantly improve and you'll find that load your looking for.

If you are truly trying to find the upper node with your configuration, you need to run moly. When you combine N540, 450s and moly, it will be right as you get to the higher end of the loading ladder that your groups will signficantly shrink and all the shots will be on top of each other.

FWIW I've been shooting N540 on and off for over 20yrs.

I have a couple bricks each of 450s and BR4s, but no Moly. I stocked up on 7.5s and have 8 bricks of them, so figured I'd use them up for this barrel. I can try a 450, but if what you say is true, than I'll still need the moly and I don't plan to run that. So I'll just have to see what this does for groups. Where is the middle node usually at with N540 and 80g bullets? I could settle for 2850-2875 fps in the 24g area if it shoots consistent. I'm just looking for 1/2 MOA or better from this rifle.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I run the 80.5 at 2710 in my 223 26 in barrel with varget
It 100% hammers! 2-3 inch at 600 in reasonable conditions and last month I shot a 1.076 group
It is one ragged hole at 100 yds
Maybe just maybe try and slow that load down?
Over and over I find lower speed loads do better for me--the advantage of speed sounds good in a discussion but at the range often times can't hold up to the performance of a well tuned lower node
I find about 020 off works well.

Im not disagreeing with you. It's just kinda hard for me to run an 80g at 2700fps or even 2800 when my 75 eldms do 3000. Ballistically would be a dog compared to the 75s...Also, there's a reason I put a 28" barrel on, and that was to get some speed, along with the accuracy that should come with a 16# precision built 223. Like I said above, I would be ok around the 2850-2875fps area if it shoots 1/2 MOA or better consistently. That would put it pretty close to the 75s ballistically and make it to 1K, although just barely.

 

[kyotekiller25]

One shot at each powder charge won't tell you much. Of course you're going to get a dispersion.

That said, there should be a couple/three shots that would be closer together with just .2 gr difference in powder. The 24.1. 24.3 and 24.5 look to be about a 1" group. At 300 yards that's a bit less than 1/3 MOA. I'd follow up with three shot groups at each of those charges. If they all worked out, I'd try 10 at 24.3 to confirm it's the center of the node.
You could then test seating depth at that charge.
That said, if I got 1/3 MOA groups I'd be more than happy. [I compete in 'cross the course' - 1/2 MOA groups are great for our targets]

Gotcha. I was thinking about trying the 24 to 24.5 area. So 3 shot groups, would you do them at 100 or 300 yards this next go round? I can live with 2850-2875fps, but I'm just not super interested in going much below that, kinda defeats the purpose of a 28" barrel and getting to 1K. All I want is consistent 1/2 MOA or better. Shouldn't be asking to much from a 16# precision 223.

 

[jelenko]

Uh, oh. You said the 1000 yard word! Hopefully others will be along to help with the 80.5 at 1000 yards.

For group size, I would like to start at 100 to reduce the effects of wind. Then confirm at 300.

 

[kyotekiller25]

Well haha, ultimately that's what I had it built for, a 1K trainer. The 75g ELDM at 3000fps gets to 1K pretty easy and does quite well as long as the wind isn't too crazy. It's tough to beat the BC/speed of the 75 ELDM, but figured I'd give the 80.5 Berger a shot and see if I'm leaving anything on the table accuracy wise. I would expect them to shoot better, and also be less fussy than the 75 ELDM...

I think I'm going to do 23.8-24.8 in .2g increments. Shoot them on a horizontal line at 100 yards and we'll go from there.

 

[Tireguy]

Well haha, ultimately that's what I had it built for, a 1K trainer. The 75g ELDM at 3000fps gets to 1K pretty easy and does quite well as long as the wind isn't too crazy. It's tough to beat the BC/speed of the 75 ELDM, but figured I'd give the 80.5 Berger a shot and see if I'm leaving anything on the table accuracy wise. I would expect them to shoot better, and also be less fussy than the 75 ELDM...

I think I'm going to do 23.8-24.8 in .2g increments. Shoot them on a horizontal line at 100 yards and we'll go from there.

Give the 450s a try and run your ladder test while looking for pressure signs. I think you'll find what your looking for even without moly.

My experience was to push the N540 pretty hard and when I did, the groups just shrank into a tiny little knot. I was not concerned about brass life.

 

[kyotekiller25]

Was able to hit the range this morning and shoot a few 3 shot groups from 23.7-24.7 in .2g increments. 24.5g is looking very promising. Guess I'll load up another 20 rounds at 24.5g, and see what a 10 shot group looks like at 100 and 300, and also get a little more crono data. If it keeps that up, I'll be quite pleased.

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

Was able to hit the range this morning and shoot a few 3 shot groups from 23.7-24.7 in .2g increments. 24.5g is looking very promising. Guess I'll load up another 20 rounds at 24.5g, and see what a 10 shot group looks like at 100 and 300, and also get a little more crono data. If it keeps that up, I'll be quite pleased.

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Post the 5-10 shot groups when you get them please! The sierra 77's are shooting better then the eld's in mine with N140. I really think I need a powder change just gotta wait for the next free hazmat day so I can pick up several powders in 1lb cans. Maybe July 4th. I really thought N140 would be the bomb since its rumored to be loaded by Berger in their 77gn ammo and its right next to Varget on the burn chart.... alas...

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

Hey I also noticed you have the Wylde chamber but with .080 freebore. Did you or the gunsmith throat it? Wylde normally has .062"

 

[kyotekiller25]

I'll definitely keep ya posted on the next outing. I'm surprised N140 didn't work out for you. It seems like a ton of guys use that or varget. And yes, I had the smith throat it out a bit longer to get the boattail junction where it needed to be a little better with a 75/80g ELDM.

 

[Skeetman59]

I’m using Alliant 2000 MR 25.5 grains with 80.5 Bergers. Super accurate.

 

[kyotekiller25]

Made it to the range this morning with the R700 223 Wylde. Loaded up 19 more rounds with the 80.5 Berger/24.5g N540 and did a 10 shot group at 100 and a 9 shot group at 300. By the time I got to 300, the last 4 or 5 shots the wind had picked up a bit and so did the mirage. The far left shot and the 2 far shots to the right were definitely from the wind. I have not yet ran a seating depth test on these bullets, just powder charge. Started at about 20 off and went with it. Could probably do a little better with a seating depth test and less wind/mirage. The ES/SD again isn't great, gotta love the 223 for that right?! Individually weighed to the kernel on the RCBS balance beam. I'm liking the velocity N540 is producing from the 28" Bartlein. I now have 2 decent loads from this rifle with N540, the 75g ELDM at 3000 and 80.5g Berger at 2970. 5 shot groups are typically 3/8-1/2 MOA from 100-500 yards. Now comes the real fun in shooting steel from 500-1200 and getting some good dope. Comment's or criticism is always welcome!

 

[Chilly807]

If you want to tighten up the ES/SD, try putting a light crimp on the case mouth with the Lee factory crimp die.

Lee recommends 1/4 to 1/2 turn of crimp, I've had good success at just slightly more than 1/4 turn. 1/2 turn will leave some marks in the brass.

It's worked for me with all my 223 loads.

A 63 fps spread will give you some problems at 1000 yds, to put it mildly.

 

[thatguyshm]

I've struggled with 80.5s for a long time. They just don't group like the 75 ELDs do. I have a 26" 7.7 bartlein wylde that I just couldn't get them as tight as I wanted too.

Only thing I can think of with your velocity change is did you weigh the bullets?? Maybe a lighter one slipped in. I haven't had it happen with Berger yet, but every other commercial manufacturer has sent me other diameter or weight bullets. No manufacturer is perfect.

I had decent results with AR Comp of all powders, velocities around 2900 fps.

 

[charlie b]

So, does anyone get good es/sd with the .223 and heavy bullets? I've used a lot of Varget and now N540 with 73 Bergers and 77 SMK. I guess I am spoiled with the 6BR where it is 'easy' to get under 10sd and under 20es (I try for 5/10 es/sd but that's a bit harder ). I have tried crimping with the Lee die but it just opens groups up.

Funny part is the darn bullets are still pretty accurate out to 600yd. A little vertical, but, not any more than my .308 had with 155's.

 

[Laurie]

Scroll down here to my results with N540 in the 223 with the 77gn SMK and a 30-inch Benchmark barrel and somewhat longer chamber freebore than yours (ca. 140 thou').

I'd be concerned about over-pressures with your 80.5gn Berger Fullbore MVs.

Lapua brass; (mild) PMC (Russian) SRM primer (Murom KVB-5,56)

https://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3856