How to Lower Powder and Primer Prices?

[bobm]

I burned a little over a pound of N140 today while you guys were posting.

 

[Clancy]

I have lots Hodgdon powder but it seems like I always need something I don't have and cant find.
I have seen people talk about Vihtavuori powders. Where could someone find first of all loading data for those powders and where is it sold online?

Thank You
Del

For load data: Vihtavuori, here and your bullet manufacturer (call and ask)

I buy all my powder from Whidden.

 

[CJ6]

Yup.... Best prices on VV powder is Whiddens.

 

[varget204]

I doubt that very much.

When sales get slow the Distribtor companies, drop the prices, Powder Valley ,Brownells, Midway,Bruno's ETC. Many More,they also Offer Free Hazmat & sometimes Shipping

 

[Kracken McGraw]

When sales get slow the Distribtor companies, drop the prices, Powder Valley ,Brownells, Midway,Bruno's ETC. Many More,they also Offer Free Hazmat & sometimes Shipping

Can see it on primers now.

 

[JFrank]

Can see it on primers now.

Let me know when they get down to $30 a brick.

 

[JFrank]

When sales get slow the Distribtor companies, drop the prices, Powder Valley ,Brownells, Midway,Bruno's ETC. Many More,they also Offer Free Hazmat & sometimes Shipping

It actually did’ Hodgens H4895 went from $65.99 lb to $59.99 IIRC so yeah’ I stand corrected.

 

[brokeasajoke]

Let me know when they get down to $30 a brick.

Some foreign off brand SPP are knocking on that. I've tried a few and all went bang but I'm using up my remaining federal I paid $90 for.

 

[ebb]

I was looking at a website I've been visiting for years call Gun Deals, they have a small description of a product and a link to a website that is home to the "deal" they show. They had Winchester and Remington primers for $69, which is only about twice what they were 3-4 years ago. They had powder at a shop named Arm or Ally, I have never bought anything there and have no Idea if it is legit or not. Some shotgun powder and obscure rifle powder was in the 29-39 dollar range, and some of semi popular was priced better than I had seen in along time. Then the sniper hide favorites were still very over priced. I have been reluctant to say it but some of you are right, prices do seem to be coming down some. I do not know if there are adequate stocks or if this is permanent, or just a lull in the storm. But it does look promising.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Arm or Ally is legit. We've bought from them several times.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Yes Urban it totally matters who owns the monopoly!!! If it's someone who is looking for over the top profits at the expense of the industry, not good. If it is somebody who is looking for a fair profit and centuries of good relations with it's customers good. Think Vihtavuori. ^^^^^ Tom yet there could have been no war at all, no 1.5 million deaths, no expenses, just peace. Yet the American people wanted a president, that needed to be institutionalized. And Europe wanted to spend our money for defense so they could waste theirs on woke. And this like war like several of the wars in my lifetime, will have no winner. Just losers. I struggle to think of anything good that has happened in the last 4 presidential cycles.

Monopolies are never good for anyone except the people who own them. And are ILLEGAL in this country. For a good reason.

 

[jelenko]

Monopolies are never good for anyone except the people who own them. And are ILLEGAL in this country. For a good reason.

Our anti trust laws prohibit certain behaviors, not just the fact that a company has a dominant market position. https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitru...trust Act,be prosecuted criminally or civilly.

 

[ebb]

Do you think I can print the law from a USA government web page and send it with my next order and get a fair price?

 

[WileyG]

I long for these days to return.......yes, I actually have these and will never use them. A dear friend who has gone to the great landing bench in the sky had these in a bulk buy that I got from him less than 2 weeks before he passed. RIP Dennis Yerbey....

 

[Dolomite]

EVERYONE should STOP Buying Powder,Primers for 2-4 weeks, Prices would come Down

This is what we should all do.....

 

[Dolomite]

Over the years powder and primers surge in price based on demand of fear of missing out up and down up and down. War & Politics over the last 20 years and several presidents neither powder nor primers were never banned much less ammo. Yes the prices go up like everything else but not by $20 a # for powder or $300 a case of primers.

Bullet makers knee jerk reaction is to increase production, expand, which increase's cost but at the same time quality falls apart. Fear of losing sales and profits also drive up the price to pay for the expansion. BANG all of sudden the demand drops because of high price and crappy quality, businesses are stuck with the higher cost to produce so they increase prices again. Now they have to charge a higher price just to cover costs and maintain profit.

I see guys selling 4000 Berger 105 Hybrids cause they hoarded and now realize I don't like that bullet or I don't shoot that many rounds and I wasted money on it.

Consumers have a choice pay those higher prices or stop buying and force the companies to take smaller profits or drop sales price. Consumers need to realize they also promote this behavior and stop hoarding.

Just buy what you plan to use in the coming future and suppliers will have those items on the shelves as normal. For me I don't need primers for the next 20 years or powder for the next 15 years chances are I WILL DIE before using it up which is a reality and that is bad for the sport. Someone hoarding is taking up supplies for others who could use it or driving prices up. YES I know plenty of guys like that and I tell them I see how much you shoot you will NEVER EVER use up what you have unless you live to 200 years old. They take pride in hoarding. If you have that much money invest it in something that will pay off not something that your surviving dependents will give away for almost free or maybe toss in the garden because someone tells them its too old to use.

I realized this after watching guys hoard the powder and primers locally, I stopped buying because yes I'm in that boat of having 6-8 years worth. When I get to the 5th year and my inventory drops maybe I'll buy more. As I'm getting up there in age I don't see myself shooting more because I have more time I might shoot less, BUT hey that is just me.

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.......

 

[hoz53]

The problem with canister powder for reloading is that there is an oligopoly for that market in the US.

All canister smokeless powder distribution is controlled by 3 companies:
- Hodgdon (Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester/Accurate/Ramshot/Alliant)
- Shooters World
- Nammo (Vihtavuori)

The one exception I know of is Midwest Powder sold by American Reloading, but I believe their powder is from demilling (though I could be wrong)

During the last panic buying cycle, Hodgdon figured out that our sorry behinds will buy their most popular products at pretty much any price they set. Furthermore they started selling said products direct, cutting out the retail channel and directly pocketing the inflated profits.

I have a feeling that if we were able to see the financial results from Hodgdon for the last 3 years we would be shocked.

So they are making a lot of money - good for them.

Yes, but the problem with the oligopoly in the US canister powder market is that it is extremely difficult for new players to enter the market. At this point there are very few canister powders not already controlled by one for the existing 3 distributors (perhaps Bofors and Norma would be available) and the investment / infrastructure needed for importing, storing, repackaging and distributing canister powder is significant. Not to mention the barrier of entry to become a powder manufacturer in the US...

Shooters World managed to do it by becoming the US distributor for the Lovex powders but that brought the oligopoly from 2 companies to 3. And they quickly figured out the skewed market will tolerate them selling 8 lbs of powder for $500 (checks notes - apparently now increased to $600).

If this was a level market, with reasonable barriers of entry, there would already be new players entering at these profit margins. But it is not a level market with reasonable barriers of entry, so the oligopoly has undue power in artificially controlling pricing.

We sing the praises of Vihtavuori in that Nammo has so far not implemented the same greedflation increases as the 2 other companies, but there is really nothing preventing them from doing so. They could raise the price of their powder to $60/lb and there would be no recourse. No new players entering the market trying to undercut the competition, because there are no other sources of canister powder that is not already controlled by the existing oligopoly (again, perhaps with the exception of Norma and Bofors).

Compare this to the primer situation. The same greedflation increases initially took place for primers (especially by CCI and Federal) but the primer distribution market has a significantly lower barrier of entry. There is a big difference in getting permits, storage and infrastructure for distributing 20 pallets of primers, compared to what is needed for distribution, storage and repackaging of canister powder.

A cottage industry has come into existence where industrious parties have become non-exclusive distributors of primers from other countries (brands such as Ginex, Magtech, RUAG, EXAKT, Fiocchi, Murom etc.). There is a large supply of such primers which has driven down their prices, which in turn is forcing CCI and Federal to lower their prices.

Remember the nonsense of $120 per brick of CCI 400 small rifle primers, plus shipping and hazmat - limit 1?

That silliness is now gone. Sure, CCI primers are still ridiculously overpriced but the prices of primers are falling because there is a more level playing field, allowing additional players to enter the market and sell comparable products at lower prices.

Ammoseek is showing 40-50 results of primers priced between 3 and 5 cents a piece.

Primer prices are coming down because of a comparatively healthy market environment. Greedflation drove up profit margins to the point where crafty individuals and companies found it worthwhile to go through the effort to become licensed to import and sell / distribute primers from new sources. The increased supply of products is driving prices down.

For canister powder that healthy market does not exist because of the 3 company oligopoly. Now just wait for Hodgdon to buy Shooters World (or god forbid Nammo) and it will only get worse.

Edit: Thanks to urbanrifleman for pointing out Alliant is distributed by Hodgdon

good post thanks. mabie Buffet will buy all three of them!!— he likes companies with “A Big Moat”.
how much bigger could it get—- i no longer think of myself as someone who will be shooting alot as long as im physically able. everytime i need to buy components i make the decision weather its over or not.

 

[hoz53]

EVERYONE should STOP Buying Powder,Primers for 2-4 weeks, Prices would come Down

Im in- i wasnt planning on buying any cases, powder or primers for at least 2 to 4 months anyway. Bullets i may not make it.

 

[jelenko]

I don't need primers for the next 20 years or powder for the next 15 years chances are I

Could you say more about what you mean by 'hoarding'?

 

[hoz53]

I burned a little over a pound of N140 today while you guys were posting.

Ok Bob- inquiring minds wanna know-Wat were you shooting? 50 BMG?