Trimming the head of a case, anyone???

[DiffEQ]

If I can see a case head is out of square with the longitudinal axis, I toss it. I don't worry about it otherwise.
Edit to add, when I change barrels, I have my Smith check the bolt face alignment.
Based on the Axis rifle that I had, I would suspect the rifle.

 

[Thor357]

I would check your sizing die and see if you are setting the shoulder back enough. How many times have these cases been fire? All cases do not work harden to the same degree. When sizing cases some may spring back and result in hard chambering. Anneal your cases and resize them. See if they all chamber correctly.

Thanks for replying and your advice.
I believe I have set my sizing die to the correct shoulder bump though you may be right. I'll double check on the next batch.
As for annealing, I don't always anneal my cases but you may have something there. Again, I'll do that on the next batch and see if that makes any difference.
Thanks again for your input.

 

[Thor357]

If I can see a case head is out of square with the longitudinal axis, I toss it. I don't worry about it otherwise.
Edit to add, when I change barrels, I have my Smith check the bolt face alignment.
Based on the Axis rifle that I had, I would suspect the rifle.

Hmm...I did have my rifle serviced not long ago and he didn't mention anything about any misalignment.
This rifle preforms amazingly well, better than I hoped for. All my rifles (5) are by Savage and they all perform very well. I know there are some that disparage Savage but I've been very pleased with mine even out to 600+ yards.

 

[over_thetop]

figuring out what I wasn't doing to get great accuracy, I could kick myself for getting rid of two Savages I had. The 243 went through too many unnecessary changes ( the big one was a medium varmint barrel, and blaming the company for my loading mistakes) and the 270 should consistent groups but not very tight and could have been tweaked.

I have to say once I found this site it was a major game changer.

 

[Thor357]

figuring out what I wasn't doing to get great accuracy, I could kick myself for getting rid of two Savages I had. The 243 went through too many unnecessary changes ( the big one was a medium varmint barrel, and blaming the company for my loading mistakes) and the 270 should consistent groups but not very tight and could have been tweaked.

I have to say once I found this site it was a major game changer.

Yeah, I've shot many rifles in my day and some have been astounding but if it's astounding you're looking for, be prepared to pay for it. On the flip side, more than a few have been less than impressive. I chose Savage only because my buddy had one that he let me shoot and I was pleasantly surprised. I've been buying Savages ever since. I do own a Ruger (22LR) and a Browning(22LR) and they do quite well too.

 

[over_thetop]

Yeah, I've shot many rifles in my day and some have been astounding but if it's astounding you're looking for, be prepared to pay for it. On the flip side, more than a few have been less than impressive. I chose Savage only because my buddy had one that he let me shoot and I was pleasantly surprised. I've been buying Savages ever since. I do own a Ruger (22LR) and a Browning(22LR) and they do quite well too.

Sako is astounding... but defiantly isn't in my price range. I picked up a Weatherby Vanguard years ago that is astounding but was reasonable for me.

Savage was reasonable, but don't know what they go for now. I'm sure they are near 1K or a little more. For off the shelf, they shoot very good. I too chose them because of my BIL.. he has a bolt action shot gun he raved about. I've been working on a W70 deluxe .30-06 for awhile now, bedded, and loads that shoot well from neck tension changes that did the trick along with the right powder/charge.

 

[Thor357]

There is a few things I would do before trimming case heads. First would be figure out why you need a small base die shooting a bolt action.

The T7 is a great press, but not for forming brass. There is a difference between resizing and forming. If you are using a small base die, it’s closer to forming pressure needed. The turret will tip.

If you are not using Redding competition shell holders, you’re probably not getting the die to have full contact with the shell holder. This can be another issue with the T7 when it tilts. If you size the brass twice and turn it 180 for the second size, it might correct itself.

If the bolt won’t close on sized brass, are you certain it’s not the base diameter? Even a small base die does not size below the 200 line.

Finally, if the case head is not square to the body, it will likely show up one of two simple ways. If the case mouth is square to the body after trimming, simply measuring with a caliper and holding it to the light, you should be able to see light below the case head on the caliper surface or anvil on one end ore the other. Same check at the shoulder. Might indicate which end is not perpendicular tonthe body.

What it really sounds like is brass that was fired in another chamber, possibly an auto loader. If that’s the case, then it’s better just to get new brass.

Awesome! Thank you for replying. I needed a small base die (.308 Forster) because my "normal" die (Redding Competition Die) wouldn't allow the case to chamber. I was told by Savage that the Savage Axis II Precision rifles are on the tight side of SAAMI specs, so a small base die would likely solve the issue and they were correct.

I also have a Redding single stage press that I recently switched to just because of what you described about the T-7. It has helped.

I marked the cases with machinist dye at the head, shoulder and did see indications of contact. Oh and by the way, I did a lot of this "experimenting" with the barrel removed from the receiver. This is where I saw evidence of the case making contact somewhere in the chamber. I would go back and re-size the case and often this solved the issue...but not always. I believe it very well maybe just the brand of cases I'm dealing with (Lake City). I did try this with a handful of Winchester brass and had no issues.

I use Hornady/Lee shell holders. I keep them clean. Perhaps I should invest in some Redding Comp. Shell holders. Thanks for that advice.

I have an optical comparator that lets me check whether the mouth/base head are parallel to within 0.0005"s. After trimming they are typically within 0.001, so I believe that is "good enough". I could be wrong, I don't know.

The brass is supposedly once fired brass from my buddies bolt action .308 Tika tx3.
He cleaned it and resized it for his rifle. It won't chamber in mine without me resizing it using my SBD.

Whew!!! I hope I provided enough info to perhaps better inform the readers of this thread and you as well to let me know what I'm doing wrong or what else I should be doing. I've only been target shooting for a little over five years but I shoot a lot compared to most, no less than 200 per week, often close to 500. These sessions are with my 3 Savage .308 rifles but I do keep the fired cases segregated per rifle used. My Savage Axis II Precision is the only rifle I have this issue with.

Thanks again for replying, you've been very helpful.

 

[Thor357]

Sako is astounding... but defiantly isn't in my price range. I picked up a Weatherby Vanguard years ago that is astounding but was reasonable for me.

Savage was reasonable, but don't know what they go for now. I'm sure they are near 1K or a little more. For off the shelf, they shoot very good. I too chose them because of my BIL.. he has a bolt action shot gun he raved about. I've been working on a W70 deluxe .30-06 for awhile now, bedded, and loads that shoot well from neck tension changes that did the trick along with the right powder/charge.

I've heard good things about Sako's but have never shot one.
My Savage Axis II Precision was about $1300. I've added a Vortex Golden Eagle scope to it as well as a Magpul bipod though I use a Caldwell front rest to shoot from on the bench at my friends ranch. The rifle is on an MDT chassis, that's the way it come from Savage. I also have a .223 version that too shoots amazing.

 

[over_thetop]

I've heard good things about Sako's but have never shot one.
My Savage Axis II Precision was about $1300. I've added a Vortex Golden Eagle scope to it as well as a Magpul bipod though I use a Caldwell front rest to shoot from on the bench at my friends ranch. The rifle is on an MDT chassis, that's the way it come from Savage. I also have a .223 version that too shoots amazing.

what cal is the Axis ?

 

[Thor357]

what cal is the Axis ?

.308
I shoot mostly .308 and .223/5.56
I have a couple of 22LR rifles but rarely shoot them,

 

[over_thetop]

what do you think about this ?

 

[Thor357]

what do you think about this ?

View attachment 1597668

Hmm...I have something similar but it does it in a slightly different way. Sorry I don't have the ability to attach any pictures as I'm not a paying member.
I have a Redding Instant Indicator/Comparator #17155 and #17111

 

[6.5 forever]

I would worry more about the ejector plunger pushing the brass crooked moreso than trying to square the case head

Never thought about that. I took my ejector out, but because my old body dislikes picking up brass off the ground.

 

[dellet]

Awesome! Thank you for replying. I needed a small base die (.308 Forster) because my "normal" die (Redding Competition Die) wouldn't allow the case to chamber. I was told by Savage that the Savage Axis II Precision rifles are on the tight side of SAAMI specs, so a small base die would likely solve the issue and they were correct.

I marked the cases with machinist dye at the head, shoulder and did see indications of contact. Oh and by the way, I did a lot of this "experimenting" with the barrel removed from the receiver. This is where I saw evidence of the case making contact somewhere in the chamber. I would go back and re-size the case and often this solved the issue...but not always.



The brass is supposedly once fired brass from my buddies bolt action .308 Tika tx3.
He cleaned it and resized it for his rifle. It won't chamber in mine without me resizing it using my SBD.

I think that answers the question.

A tight chamber using brass fired in a larger chamber, is a good way to frustrate the pope.
Is it tight in diameter, length (headspace) or both?
What happens with new brass, fired only in your rifle?

Contact at both shoulder and case head, is zero headspace. Most people want at least .002”.
A measurement of case head to shoulder on a case fired in your rifle to determine headspace would be helpful.

If trimming.0005” is making a difference, you might adjust your die. If you’re out of adjustment, try taking .003” off the top of your shell holder.

Using the Redding competition shell holders can help the correct the base squareness problem if you’re not making full contact with the shell holder now, but they will make a zero headspace problem worse.

Just because it seems to be overlooked a lot, resizing brass fire formed in another chamber, specifically a larger chamber, is a good way to have the exact problem you are having. It’s why many people start with new brass every time they change barrels. Also why they will only fire brass in the same rifle and never mix it up.

Sounds like you’re getting close to solving the problem.

 

[over_thetop]

Awesome! Thank you for replying. I needed a small base die (.308 Forster) because my "normal" die (Redding Competition Die) wouldn't allow the case to chamber. I was told by Savage that the Savage Axis II Precision rifles are on the tight side of SAAMI specs, so a small base die would likely solve the issue and they were correct.

I also have a Redding single stage press that I recently switched to just because of what you described about the T-7. It has helped.

I marked the cases with machinist dye at the head, shoulder and did see indications of contact. Oh and by the way, I did a lot of this "experimenting" with the barrel removed from the receiver. This is where I saw evidence of the case making contact somewhere in the chamber. I would go back and re-size the case and often this solved the issue...but not always. I believe it very well maybe just the brand of cases I'm dealing with (Lake City). I did try this with a handful of Winchester brass and had no issues.

I use Hornady/Lee shell holders. I keep them clean. Perhaps I should invest in some Redding Comp. Shell holders. Thanks for that advice.

I have an optical comparator that lets me check whether the mouth/base head are parallel to within 0.0005"s. After trimming they are typically within 0.001, so I believe that is "good enough". I could be wrong, I don't know.

The brass is supposedly once fired brass from my buddies bolt action .308 Tika tx3.
He cleaned it and resized it for his rifle. It won't chamber in mine without me resizing it using my SBD.

Whew!!! I hope I provided enough info to perhaps better inform the readers of this thread and you as well to let me know what I'm doing wrong or what else I should be doing. I've only been target shooting for a little over five years but I shoot a lot compared to most, no less than 200 per week, often close to 500. These sessions are with my 3 Savage .308 rifles but I do keep the fired cases segregated per rifle used. My Savage Axis II Precision is the only rifle I have this issue with.

Thanks again for replying, you've been very helpful.

do you anneal your brass ? I can't believe your buddies Tika being that much bigger.

 

[std7mag]

I could see this possibly making a difference with a solid bolt.

Doing this on a Savage with a floating bolt head, not so much.

 

[Webster]

Here's my thoughts/reasoning. If the surface/face of the head isn't perpendicular to the mouth of the case, the case could be off kilter in the chamber just a bit causing a slightly stiff bolt drop.
I have an L. E. Wilson case trimmer and I started facing the case head and mouth and found out that indeed, it does improve chambering/bolt drop. Does/has anyone do/done this?

Your the only person that worries about this. Hundreds of competitive shooters setting records don't do it. Maybe your bolt face isn't square to the centerline of the chamber. Face one off shoot it a see if it's still square. I doubt a trimmer is meant to be a precison device accurate to +/- 0.02" runout.

To many guys think they will turn an average rifle into a great rifle by being OCD with ammo reloading. You need to work on personal skills as much or more than thinking about 20 things you can do to make better ammo. Erik Cortina says if a rifle won't shoot under 1/2" with a small number of shots, he takes the barrel off and sells it to someone that wants a nice hunting barrel. Most of us canot buy 10 barrels at a time looking for a good one. Many competitive shooters do.

 

[Thor357]

I think that answers the question.

A tight chamber using brass fired in a larger chamber, is a good way to frustrate the pope.
Is it tight in diameter, length (headspace) or both?
What happens with new brass, fired only in your rifle?

Contact at both shoulder and case head, is zero headspace. Most people want at least .002”.
A measurement of case head to shoulder on a case fired in your rifle to determine headspace would be helpful.

If trimming.0005” is making a difference, you might adjust your die. If you’re out of adjustment, try taking .003” off the top of your shell holder.

Using the Redding competition shell holders can help the correct the base squareness problem if you’re not making full contact with the shell holder now, but they will make a zero headspace problem worse.

Just because it seems to be overlooked a lot, resizing brass fire formed in another chamber, specifically a larger chamber, is a good way to have the exact problem you are having. It’s why many people start with new brass every time they change barrels. Also why they will only fire brass in the same rifle and never mix it up.

Sounds like you’re getting close to solving the problem.

Okay, maybe I need to clarify a bit.
The brass I acquired from my friend is resized by me using my Forster small base die. Most of the brass I'm using is from him but a fair amount is my own brass that has been shot through this rifle many times. The issue I'm encountering seems to happen no matter what case I am using.

I don't have any new brass so I can't answer that question. I don't plan on buying any more brass as I have over 10,000 cases of just .308 brass alone sitting in boxes under my work bench. I chose Lake City brass because it's the brass I have the most of because my friend and I plan on going to a range that has targets out to 1.25 miles and everything in between. It's on our bucket list of things to do before we die.

I have Forster go/no-go head space gages and know how to use them. So I believe I've answered that question.

I'm not trying to trim my cases to within 0.0005". And I seriously doubt 0.0005" would make a difference. I don't think anyone makes a case trimmer that can do that. I may very well be wrong about that but I'm not about to buy another case trimmer.

Yeah, someone mentioned the competition shell holders from Redding. I may make an investment in them in the future.

Someone else mentioned swapping out barrels. I'm unlikely to consider doing that as this barrel has proven to be quite accurate and has less than 1000 rounds put through it. Also, my reloads are typically a grain or two below max (according to QuickLoad) so excessive chamber/barrel wear is unlikely though not impossible.

I keep all brass segregated per each rifle. I'm aware that no two chambers/barrels are the same and it is wise to not swap brass between them, so I don't.

So before I conclude my response, I want to say thank you for responding. You've helped me determine that I'm on the right track to solving this issue and have also given me a few things to reconsider. So, again thank you.

 

[over_thetop]

Your the only person that worries about this. Hundreds of competitive shooters setting records don't do it. Maybe your bolt face isn't square to the centerline of the chamber. Face one off shoot it a see if it's still square. I doubt a trimmer is meant to be a precison device accurate to +/- 0.02" runout.

To many guys think they will turn an average rifle into a great rifle by being OCD with ammo reloading. You need to work on personal skills as much or more than thinking about 20 things you can do to make better ammo. Erik Cortina says if a rifle won't shoot under 1/2" with a small number of shots, he takes the barrel off and sells it to someone that wants a nice hunting barrel. Most of us canot buy 10 barrels at a time looking for a good one. Many competitive shooters do.

Oh contrar oh contrar. Didn’t take much to achieve this, CONSISTENTLY

 

[Thor357]

Your the only person that worries about this. Hundreds of competitive shooters setting records don't do it. Maybe your bolt face isn't square to the centerline of the chamber. Face one off shoot it a see if it's still square. I doubt a trimmer is meant to be a precison device accurate to +/- 0.02" runout.

To many guys think they will turn an average rifle into a great rifle by being OCD with ammo reloading. You need to work on personal skills as much or more than thinking about 20 things you can do to make better ammo. Erik Cortina says if a rifle won't shoot under 1/2" with a small number of shots, he takes the barrel off and sells it to someone that wants a nice hunting barrel. Most of us canot buy 10 barrels at a time looking for a good one. Many competitive shooters do.

Yes, I'm not in the same league as Erik nor can I afford to discard a barrel because it won't shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards!
It is true that my shooting skills maybe in question as I have pretty much been self taught over the last 5.5 years I've been doing this. But then why can I shoot sub MOA at various distances with my .223 version of the same rifle? Not that the .308 version is not doing the same, it's just a case/chamber issue with the .308 version.
Oh no!!! You mentioned the word OCD!!! I AM one of those that fusses over the minutiae that comes with reloading...sorta. I do know when to stop, it just may take me a while to do that!

I wouldn't worry about this cr@p if what I was doing wasn't working. Will it make a difference at the range? Probably not. And once I actually realize that, I'll stop with this lunacy. (have you seen my pills anywhere!!)