22 LR benchrest question

[Todd Earhart]

Most of the time I go to a estimated hold off and work from there. This is not what most do but I've gotten used to that and have stuck with it. The only time I shoot sighters dot to dot is in low to no and in extreme conditions. Like I said this is not what most do.
Todd

 

[VLNBYR]

I can not think of a single good reason why you would not shoot your sighters exactly like you shoot your record bulls.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I can not think of a single good reason why you would not shoot your sighters exactly like you shoot your record bulls.

This is very true, but if the condition changes you need a new hold. so, you need to shoot the sighter differently, right? unless I am missing something on shooting it the same as the previous condition

Lee

 

[linekin]

I shoot them as I'd hold for most of the time. The only exception is head/tail winds, which I try to avoid, to get my new hold for correction. Then I'll confirm holding high/low.

 

[Tony K Harper]

These last few posts on how to shoot sighters has been very interesting. I did not realize there were two very different approaches to shooting sighters. Seems just as many here think they already know where to aim therefore they use the sighter to confirm they are correct.

Others are using the sighter to see where the bullet goes from an absolute aiming point.

It would be interesting to see a survey on this subject.

TKH

 

[ADKTIM]

Guys.....sorry i started this post. it seems to be getting out of hand. I can see a lot of benchrest shooters going to there local therapist.

Zo..... ven did your sighter obsesion start. "Well Doc it all started when i was shooting glass bottles at the local range. We took a few sighters at the DON"T SHOOT GLASS BOTTLES sign and i was able to keep them inside the O i then proceeded to brake all the bottles" MMMM very good shooting then what happened. " Well, we drank a few more targets and threw them down range and we broke them. WOW we couldn't contain ourselves" Zo were your and friends happy? What happened next?
"Well Doc that's where it all started to unravel. "Hank had the bright idea to see if we could shoot a poppy seed at 50 yards" OHHH zat sounds difficult. " Difficult aint the word Doc. 2 marriages later, $10,000 dollars in hock, my Kids wouldn't talk to me, they took pickup and trailer i need to move all my shooting stuff and i think i'm getting fired tomorrow" hmmmm.....nurse clear my schedule this is going to be a long day.

SORRY ALL sometime you just have to laugh
And would like to thank every participant in the thread, it has helped!!!

 

[teamgeek]

The quality of the higher speed ammo is so bad that its impossible to shoot for score, so trying to test it for a advantage is a wash.

The reason that high velocity 22 ammo is less effective in the wind is not question of quality. It is based on an important ballistic phenomenon. Wind drift is proportional to the difference in vacuum time of flight versus the time though air, not merely the time of flight. This difference is called lag time. Projectiles suffer the greatest drag in transonic flight. This leads to a significant increase in the lag time, transonic vs subsonic. The completely non-intuitive result is that wind drift increases as velocity increases up into the transonic range. I was running one of the online ballistic calculators when I first encountered this phenomenon. At first I thought the calculator was in error. It took a conversation with my old teammate Brian Litz to finally understand this condition. Try running calculations to confirm it for yourself.

 

[Tesoro]

The reason that high velocity 22 ammo is less effective in the wind is not question of quality. It is based on an important ballistic phenomenon. Wind drift is proportional to the difference in vacuum time of flight versus the time though air, not merely the time of flight. This difference is called lag time. Projectiles suffer the greatest drag in transonic flight. This leads to a significant increase in the lag time, transonic vs subsonic. The completely non-intuitive result is that wind drift increases as velocity increases up into the transonic range. I was running one of the online ballistic calculators when I first encountered this phenomenon. At first I thought the calculator was in error. It took a conversation with my old teammate Brian Litz to finally understand this condition. Try running calculations to confirm it for yourself.

this is from the old days:

Page Title

 

[Todd Earhart]

Teamgeek, I will not dispute the ballistics but will dispute the testing. The quality of lapua, eley, rws subsonic match ammo is so far ahead of other fast ammo its impossible to do a accurate test. These companies have match ammo that range from 1040 to 1090 fps. So are you saying the 1040 is always going to be better in the wind than the 1090? Straight up question with no sarcasm intended. We lot test only for ammo and speed never comes into play. We have only ever tested one lot of ammo that went supersonic and had decent enough quality to be considered and it was a few boxes of UM1 that we did check the speed. 1150 fps. It was competitive ammo but we had just a few boxes. Basically what I'm saying is there has never been the effort put into supersonic ammo quality to have a legitimate test against subsonic match ammo.
Todd

 

[Todd Earhart]

Mr. Harper, I missed your post. After reading it I would assume you are in the later of the two groups. Was this something that was taught to you early on or something that you just started with and carried on? Like I said earlier, most I know shoot dot to dot to determine where and how far off the shot lands. I have never started that way. I see ups and down to both.
Todd

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Guys.....sorry i started this post. it seems to be getting out of hand. I can see a lot of benchrest shooters going to there local therapist.

Zo..... ven did your sighter obsesion start. "Well Doc it all started when i was shooting glass bottles at the local range. We took a few sighters at the DON"T SHOOT GLASS BOTTLES sign and i was able to keep them inside the O i then proceeded to brake all the bottles" MMMM very good shooting then what happened. " Well, we drank a few more targets and threw them down range and we broke them. WOW we couldn't contain ourselves" Zo were your and friends happy? What happened next?
"Well Doc that's where it all started to unravel. "Hank had the bright idea to see if we could shoot a poppy seed at 50 yards" OHHH zat sounds difficult. " Difficult aint the word Doc. 2 marriages later, $10,000 dollars in hock, my Kids wouldn't talk to me, they took pickup and trailer i need to move all my shooting stuff and i think i'm getting fired tomorrow" hmmmm.....nurse clear my schedule this is going to be a long day.

SORRY ALL sometime you just have to laugh
And would like to thank every participant in the thread, it has helped!!!

This a good thread no need to be sorry you had a good question to ask and some of the others had too.
without questions you don't learn the exchange of information is good to know how others shoot.

Lee

 

[linekin]

I'm guessing for those that shoot dot to dot don't go directly to a scored bull with their correction without confirming it on another sighter 1st? If so, god bless them, they've got bigger kahonees than I. I wouldn't like my chances without seeing for myself I had a handle on where to exactly hold 1st.
To each their own....

 

[doclu60]

Okay, I'll jump in. Wind charts are only good for new guys just starting out. Later for those with more experience that shoot multiple venues, as Lee posted, the wind charts don't always tell the real impact of the bullet on the target. Topographic features from each range can turn a wind chart into a useless piece of paper. I used them when I started, I don't have one to look at now. The reference posted here about Landy's chart is interesting, as he and I are friends and I challenged him on this. Head and tail winds can and will shoot flat......at certain venues. You also better have a keen observation of extremely small changes in flag angles for that to happen! I have also shot venues where the head wind made the bullet go high, very high! There again, a topographic feature at that particular range made that happen and it was very consistent.

I am in the same camp as a couple of others here, some VERY good 'big time' RFBR shooters who I know personally, sighters tell all. While I do not shoot as many venues now as is the past (15-18 a year outdoors) I do have the experience to know how different different ranges will shoot, and that wind chart will screw you on a lot of them. Learn the basics of where a bullet is 'supposed' to go with the wind angle chart out of a right hand twist barrel and once you do, throw the darn chart away and shoot sighters.

As far as shooting sighters, I shoot my first one holding dead center on the sighter bull, then shoot holds for correction after that. The key is to watch your flags when shooting sighters and shoot a bunch of them before ever going for score. NEVER shoot more than a couple of record bulls, three is a popular number with accomplished shooters, even if they are scoring the top score before going back to sighters. Never change a line on the target and not shoot sighters before going to record bulls, whether shooting verticle or horizontal lines. Never shoot a record bull if the last shot crowded the line more than you thought it should have, even if it was in. Go back to sighters. Never make large movements in rest adjustments from a sighter. If you miss in the center of the target and have to make a large movement to get to a sighter, shoot the closest bull to the sighter as possible.

There tons of ways to score higher on a target when dealing with the wind, but you have to be patient and gain experience in what works. It does not come quickly and I still struggle with all the nuances of the craft, or I would be much better than I am currently. My suggestions here though will undoubtedly be supported by many top rated shooters in RFBR.

Scott

 

[VLNBYR]

A super post Scott. Think about this...if you are shooting a sighter aiming at the dot on the bull and determine a hold off then you will have to make TWO adjustments when you go to your record bull. If you shoot a sighter using your hold off and all is good then you only have to make one movement to shoot a record bull. Every adjustment takes time and induces error. Less is More.

 

[doclu60]

A super post Scott. Think about this...if you are shooting a sighter aiming at the dot on the bull and determine a hold off then you will have to make TWO adjustments when you go to your record bull. If you shoot a sighter using your hold off and all is good then you only have to make one movement to shoot a record bull. Every adjustment takes time and induces error. Less is More.

John, for most situations I only shoot the first sighter holding on the dot. Doing that gives me the information I need to know as to where to hold for correction on subsequent sighters. The rest of the sighters are shot using hold off. I do not make the adjustments on the record bull, I make them on a sighter and confirm the hold is working, then go to the record bull. I did deviate from this last weekend though, hence my 'most situations' comment. Last weekend if I missed or the shot was edging towards a miss, I went to a sighter to reconfirm my hold. If the hold told me something had changed, I held on the dot again and shot several sighters. There were many times that I did this that told me the 'spooky condition thing' indoor occasionally does was present. Holding on the dot would produce high, left, low, etc, shot after shot and then I knew it was time to wait it out before going back to record. I would continue to shoot sighters until things settled down and became consistent again. When that happened I would confirm the hold on sighters then go to the closest record bull from my sighter bull and start over again.

Scott

Edit: I reread your post John and see what you're talking about as far as movements to record and agree, but only if your sighter bull is one movement away. If the sighter bull is not exactly in alignment with a record bull, two movements are still needed. As you know I hang an extra sighter strip below the card and have taken to shooting lines vertically instead of horizontally. I try to have the sighter bull aligned with the record bull, but sometimes it's not always possible.

 

[teamgeek]

The quality of lapua, eley, rws subsonic match ammo is so far ahead of other fast ammo its impossible to do a accurate test. These companies have match ammo that range from 1040 to 1090 fps. So are you saying the 1040 is always going to be better in the wind than the 1090?

Thank you Todd for you reply. If you will bare with me for a moment I would like to clear up some information in my earlier post and then respond to your comment.

From Wikipedia:

“Wind has a range of effects, the first being the effect of making the projectile deviate to the side (horizontal deflection). From a scientific perspective, the "wind pushing on the side of the projectile" is not what causes horizontal wind drift. What causes wind drift is drag. Drag makes the projectile turn into the wind, much like a weather vane, keeping the center of air pressure on its nose. This causes the nose to be cocked (from your perspective) into the wind, the base is cocked (from your perspective) "downwind." So, (again from your perspective), the drag is pushing the projectile downwind in a nose to tail direction.”

See typical drag charts below. Because drag is the cause of wind drift, and drag increases dramatically in the transonic range, wind drift is also increased.

Lag time is the difference in the flight time in air compared to the flight time in a vacuum. Drag has the effect of delaying the projectile and thus creating lag time. Lag time is therefor an indicator of drag and in turn a measure of wind drift. When the applicable equations are evaluated, it turns out that wind drift is directly proportional to lag time.

Again from Wikipedia:

“At the transonic region (about Mach 1.2–0.8) the center of pressure (CP) of most non spherical projectiles shifts forward as the projectile decelerates. …. However, even if the projectile has sufficient stability (static and dynamic) to be able to fly through the transonic region and stays pointing forward, it is still affected. The erratic and sudden CP shift and (temporary) decrease of dynamic stability can cause significant dispersion (and hence significant accuracy decay), even if the projectile's flight becomes well behaved again when it enters the subsonic region.”

These are the reasons that subsonic 22 ammo is more accurate. In general, lower velocity is not an advantage to accuracy, only that the projectile is not transonic during flight to the target. It may also be true that manufacturers of 22 ammo know this and so avoid the expense of applying great precision in manufacturing to their lines of high velocity 22 ammo.

 

[doclu60]

These last few posts on how to shoot sighters has been very interesting. I did not realize there were two very different approaches to shooting sighters. Seems just as many here think they already know where to aim therefore they use the sighter to confirm they are correct.

Others are using the sighter to see where the bullet goes from an absolute aiming point.

It would be interesting to see a survey on this subject.

TKH

Well, the above quote is also interesting. The author, for those that do not know, is a shooter with a very long and successful pedigree in big time RFBR. I'll start the survey, though I do not possess the talent level or pedigree of a few others that post about RFBR here. I do have a modicum of experience though.

Quote..."Seems just as many here think they already know where to aim therefore they use the sighter to confirm they are correct." Okay, I kind of get that, especially if on a range they shoot at a lot. Now, what if the day has different conditions that aren't seen on the flags shooting outdoors, or it's indoor shooting where there are no flags? Conditions outdoors other than flag information could be barometric pressure, dew burning off the ground, dew no longer burning off the ground, sunshine or clouds, humidity, a larger than normal vehicle parked on the line changing wind swirl.....on and on and on. Now what? You burn a coveted round of match ammo shooting a sighter that didn't go to the same place you thought it would and what have you learned about that? The only thing you learned is you have to make changes in what you thought you knew. If you shoot at the dot on your first sighter you know where the bullet is going at that time at that venue right now. No guessing, no theory, no 'thinking you know', just absolute definitive knowledge of where it went. I will say, you still need to shoot again to correct for proper hold off, but you are doing it with 'real time' knowledge of where it is going to go. IMO, that makes more sense and you could possibly get dialed in with less shots spent on sighters. If you are shooting a new venue, or one you only shoot once in a while, it makes even more sense! If shooting indoors, I truly believe it makes the only sense!

Quote..."Others are using the sighter to see where the bullet goes from an absolute aiming point." Now this quote is where I think you should start, for all the reasons posted above. Real time true knowledge of where your lot, your conditions, whether seen or not, is going to push that bullet. It usually only takes one shot at the sighter dot to learn exactly what is going on at that time and that information can cut down on shot count and finding the correct hold saving ammo usage and time on the clock. And who doesn't want to save match ammo in these days of limited supply, or save time on the clock if conditions dictate using more of the clock should things go sideways later in the card?

Again, JMO........Scott

 

[Tony K Harper]

Scott, you have suckered me into this conversation because I agree with most of what you have said.

I fully expect whatever I say now to be poo pooed, but so be it.

The most important point I can make about shooting match targets is to be disciplined. Have a plan on how you are going to shoot your card(s) and stick to it.

Another point. When you shoot sighters do not think your next shot is going to be exactly like your last. Said another way, these rifles don't shoot .000 groups. If you have the time and you really need the next shot to count, shoot three sighters and use the middle of the group as your reference point. Many times, you will see the group skewed in one direction.

No, I'm not saying always shoot three sighters every time you shoot sighters, but when you have a good target going and you really have to have the last few shots and you have the time, go with a three-shot average rather than a single shot.

I know it is tempting to just shoot last shots to get finished (thought being shoot before anything changes) but this will often get you burned.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to shoot. You do you, and I'll do me. But I'm sharing some of the many, many, mistakes I've made over the years.

TKH

 

[Todd Earhart]

Teemgeek, I may start another thread on theory of sub vs super. I don't want this thread to get off of good information about conditions shooting.
Refraction \mirage.
Low to no and indoor shooting sometimes is a humbling experience. There's times a person is not aiming at what they think they are. Going back to sighters is just a feeling at times.
Todd

 

[PNW Skipper]

This is one of the most informative threads I have read by experienced benchrest shooters on any site. Taken as a whole, your thoughts about the application of what is observed in reading environmental conditions, integrating that into the use of sighters, and then applying that to shot placement on record bulls is invaluable.

I am an old shooter, but relatively new to match shooting. I shoot club matches on a perennially windy range. I truly appreciate the willingness displayed here to share insights and techniques for their application. The variety of approaches provides an abundance of options to try in seeing what works best, in which conditions, for improving my scores.

Thanks!