To neck turn or not

[Kracken McGraw]

I have had 2 boxes of Alpha OCD and it is no different than Lapua. These were measurements taken today on a new box of Alpha. First off Alpha has thin necks. 2 boxes in last week different calibers. Lapua is as inconsistent. See for yourself. This is the same piece of brass approximately turned 180 degrees on measurements

Mike are you satisfied with the Alpha brass then? I was curious about if the flash holes were as clean as the Lapua also.

 

[ebb]

Flash holes are an easy fix. Brass has gotten better and the need to make necks more uniform is getting less and less. The first rifle I had a match barrel chambered for i bought Lapua gold box brass for and a K&M neck turning tool. As i cut it became obvious that it took a very small cut to clean up the brass. No turn was not mainstream then but it was obvious that turning was not as necessary as it had once been.

 

[6BRA]

Mike are you satisfied with the Alpha brass then? I was curious about if the flash holes were as clean as the Lapua also.

Not really happy , but brass is hard to come by. The flash holes look very clean and symetrical. I will say, I have purchased 3 boxes of Alpha now. All have come in with noticably thinner necks than Lapua. All OCD brass. All 3 boxes brass is around .001 out around circumference/neckwall. I am trying to figure out the premium price? Hopefully it is on case volume. However reports are that case volume is reduced on Alpha brass vs Lapua.
All have had low sides in the .01180 range. All 3 boxes. 6.5 cm srp/ 6.5 x 47/ and now 6BRA. Almost every case measures thin in all of the above mentioned boxes.

I would prefer brass be at .013 all the way around and then I can control by turning. Dream on...I guess.

 

[butchlambert]

With the specs that you mentioned I wouldn't waste my time turning the necks.

 

[6BRA]

With the specs that you mentioned I wouldn't waste my time turning the necks.

much divided opinions on this....like the voting in this country. Plenty of time in off season to refine brass/ plenty of time to sort bullets when the white stuff is on the ground. I have seen dozens of factory rifles improve groups on loose chambers with neck turning. Mostly 700s..

 

[jackieschmidt]

Flash holes are an easy fix. Brass has gotten better and the need to make necks more uniform is getting less and less. The first rifle I had a match barrel chambered for i bought Lapua gold box brass for and a K&M neck turning tool. As i cut it became obvious that it took a very small cut to clean up the brass. No turn was not mainstream then but it was obvious that turning was not as necessary as it had once been.

I made up a bunch of new 6PPC brass for The TackDriver 111, and I found that the current Lapua 220 Russian was very consistent in neck wall thickness In the neighborhood of .0005.

I could shoot Norma 6PPC brass in no neck turn, (I use a .269 neck chamber), as it is thinner than a necked up Lapua 220 Russian, but it simply will not hold up in the upper load window.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Not really happy , but brass is hard to come by. The flash holes look very clean and symetrical. I will say, I have purchased 3 boxes of Alpha now. All have come in with noticably thinner necks than Lapua. All OCD brass. All 3 boxes brass is around .001 out around circumference. I am trying to figure out the premium price? Hopefully it is on case volume. However reports are that case volume is reduced on Alpha brass vs Lapua.
All have had low sides in the .01180 range. All 3 boxes. 6.5 cm srp/ 6.5 x 47/ and now 6BRA. Almost every case measures thin in all of the above mentioned boxes.

I would prefer brass be at .013 all the way around and then I can control by turning. Dream on...I guess.

Thank You very much for your observations! I have seen that Blue Collar Reloading has a good stock of the Alpha 6br, and I’m glad it’s there for a backup plan.

 

[F-CLassInfo]

Bart Sauter just whipped us the second year in a row shooting at the Tack Driver III shooting no turn chambers. 6 BRA last year and a 6 PPC this year. I have chambered a lot of no turn 6BR barrels and had no complaints about accuracy. I don't think it's necessary except for an all out BR rifle. You do need enough neck clearance though or you could have some inconstancy.

What? He isn’t using a $3000 neck turner like everyone else and is winning?
Imagine that.

 

[Link]

It would be nice to hear from Bart, if he ''skimmed'' the necks or what. ;}

 

[6BRA]

It would be nice to hear from Bart, if he ''skimmed'' the necks or what. ;}

Or if not, did he sort brass through say 500 pieces or more to find the perfect piece of brass! Please keep in mind, I was not stating what Bart did, however just stated that there was a flaw in the way it was being understood. Just because you have a no neck turn chamber.....doesnt mean you arent turning brass. Whether it be Bart or anyone else.

 

[DaveTooley]

Or if not, did he sort brass through say 500 pieces or more to find the perfect piece of brass! Please keep in mind, I was not stating what Bart did, however just stated that there was a flaw in the way it was being understood. Just because you have a no neck turn chamber.....doesnt mean you arent turning brass. Whether it be Bart or anyone else.

He had about 500 pieces of brass with him. Multiple 100 Rnd MTM boxes. I wouldn't neck turn that much brass if somebody paid me to do it. Come to think of it I have a drawer full of neck turners I need to sell.

 

[6BRA]

He had about 500 pieces of brass with him. Multiple 100 Rnd MTM boxes. I wouldn't neck turn that much brass if somebody paid me to do it. Come to think of it I have a drawer full of neck turners I need to sell.

what brand are they? PM me pricing

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Or if not, did he sort brass through say 500 pieces or more to find the perfect piece of brass! Please keep in mind, I was not stating what Bart did, however just stated that there was a flaw in the way it was being understood. Just because you have a no neck turn chamber.....doesnt mean you arent turning brass. Whether it be Bart or anyone else.

True but I use brass right out of the box, real no turn...and it has been necked from 6.5 down to 6mm. Using Lapua brass and testing the results over several years, I can't see ANY difference on the target between my no turn and my turned brass/chambers, after the first firing. Even on the first, it's very good but I don't draw my conclusions on unfired brass. Again, if you believe it matters, then it surely does. But I thoroughly test things like this and with an open mind, accepting the results either way. I was skeptical too, at first. If you are convinced that it matters, it'll be hard to convince you otherwise, so you should do what you believe helps your finishing position, even if that involves sprinkling magic pixie dust around your shooting bench. Winter time is a good time to test these things out. No turn necks sure make brass prep easier but I'd do whatever if I could honestly say it matters. I might change my tune if I'm forced to use some other brand of brass but with Lapua, I can see no difference on target and I have good reason to believe that will hold true even with other brass, if it's even remotely close to Lapua, at least at the yardages I compete at predominantly. That brings up another point, neck tension consistency. Some amount of jam may help in that regard vs jumping. I'm almost always jamming to some degree.

 

[marchx]

Many people make decisions based on statistical data. They also look for an objective third party validation of their own decision. If 10 people on this thread will vote for neck turning vs. 3 people say "Bart Sauter doesn't turn necks and he's winning" (my favourite) then most people will follow the majority view. the same thing's happening on fora on food, fashion, hiking etc.

 

[newbieshooter]

thought this was a worthwhile read:

To Turn Necks or Not ?

During my time with the 6 PPC, I shot .261, .262, .263, and .268 necks. With the Dasher and 6 BRA, I have shot .268, .269, and .271 (no turn). What is ideal for the 6mm Cartridges? Well, personal preference has a lot to do with it, but I prefer the .268 for PPC and 6 BR-based cartridges using...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[6BRA]

Many people make decisions based on statistical data. They also look for an objective third party validation of their own decision. If 10 people on this thread will vote for neck turning vs. 3 people say "Bart Sauter doesn't turn necks and he's winning" (my favourite) then most people will follow the majority view. the same thing's happening on fora on food, fashion, hiking etc.

If 10 people on this thread will vote for neck turning vs. 3 people say "Bart Sauter doesn't turn necks and he's winning" (my favourite) then most people will follow the majority view.

another key word.....

 

[lawman29]

From July 2019

"Paul,

If I was leaving anything on the table I’d do it. 5 years ago if you asked this same question I would have said without a doubt you must turn necks, but shooting and test has shown me otherwise. Not to sound arrogant but I’m one of the very few people on this board that can shoot the difference testing at 100/200 yards.

I have proven to myself that I’m not leaving anything on the table. But to each their own. I’m not saying not to turn necks, I’ve just found it’s not necessary, if you have enough clearance. But that’s just a hard concept to accept, kind of counter intuitive!

To turn or not to turn? It’s a personal choice and I support both.

Bart"

 

[ebb]

Yea newbie you are right as rain. But the problem is the if the majority that backs that side is as clueless as I am and you have 3 or 4 pioneers of the industry like Bart, Dave Tooley, Randy Robinet and many of the others the majority means nothing.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

From July 2019

"Paul,

If I was leaving anything on the table I’d do it. 5 years ago if you asked this same question I would have said without a doubt you must turn necks, but shooting and test has shown me otherwise. Not to sound arrogant but I’m one of the very few people on this board that can shoot the difference testing at 100/200 yards.

I have proven to myself that I’m not leaving anything on the table. But to each their own. I’m not saying not to turn necks, I’ve just found it’s not necessary, if you have enough clearance. But that’s just a hard concept to accept, kind of counter intuitive!

To turn or not to turn? It’s a personal choice and I support both.

Bart"

I won't claim to be as good or better than Bart but I will claim to be confident in seeing a difference or not, over about 5 years also, of testing the same thing. I also think what he may have been saying is what difference does it make if you can't shoot the difference, too. Bottom line, we came to the same conclusion, for the same reason, to our own respective abilities and completely independently. I'm all for picking up any crumbs that actually matter but I'm satisfied that I can't shoot the difference and I guess that's ultimately what matters.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yea newbie you are right as rain. But the problem is the if the majority that backs that side is as clueless as I am and you have 3 or 4 pioneers of the industry like Bart, Dave Tooley, Randy Robinet and many of the others the majority means nothing.

Another aspect of all this is that the newer Lapua brass has been very good, like .0005 good. Frankly, that shouldn't be terribly hard to improve upon by a little bit but not everyone is getting results that good with neck turning. In fact, to save time, I've paid for brass turning that wasn't any better than that. Add in, someone new to the process, and they may get results not that good, even.

All this is pretty fresh on my mind because I have a friend who I've chambered bbls for that didn't shoot well last season. The guns shot great in practice mind you...in good conditions. Regardless, because he went to no turn chambers, guess what he blames his poor shooting last season on...Yep, you guessed it. So now he has bought all new neck turning equipment to "fix" the problem, along with new annealing equipment. Yep, first few pieces a full thou smaller or larger(I forgot which) than the intended mark. Lol! Well, there's a learning curve here. I'm not sure where that problem came from because I sat down with him and we set up one of his turners and turned a few pieces. They were pretty much spot on when they left here....There is no harm in doing it RIGHT, if you think it matters. But if you're learning the process, it might do more harm than good and we start debating then, how much matters. (Isn't that what we were already doing) Lol! Now, I guess a good test might be to shoot those to see how much difference it makes, fwiw. He struggled with multiple guns...some no turn and some not.

Bottom line, you do have to be able to shoot the difference and you can't learn that in perfect conditions, then go shoot in the wind expecting to win.

I'll say this again...you buy wins at the practice bench, not at the keyboard and not by buying new gadgets. Absolutely nothing wrong with making everything as near perfect as possible either but you still have to be able to shoot the difference and that only happens with GOOD practice. I'm fortunate to have a home range and I fully intend to burn up at least one barrel over the winter. Components have limited some people's GOOD practice, including mine but I'm fixing that too...as best I can.

Another way to look at this is...lets say brass out of the box does have .0005 TIR. Now, does making that brass .0004"(+/- .0002)give a 20% reduction in group size? Well, I wish it did because I can generally hold mine to +/- .0001