Lack of ethics in long range Hunting Breakdown

[David Milisock]

I’ll listen politely to guys talk about making super long shots, but all I hear is “blah, blah, blah”. They aren’t my kind of people.

I read about the 1,000 yard dog town shoots. A fat old dog is what? Six inches wide standing. A high BC bullet at 3,000 FPS+ has a wind drift of maybe 30+ inches at that range in medium wind, then add maybe 10 inches of spin drift. Now add in the variable of wind gusts and eddy currents.

How many 1,000 yard misses do you think happen?

A test done a few days ago, an 18" plate at 600 and a 24" plate at 675 yards. Three rifles my AR 15 in 6MM ARC, Two bolt rifles, one in 6,5 Creedmore, one in 308 Winchester. This was a cheat test I did on these guys in an area I've hunted chucks in for 40 years.

Wind was 5MPH with gusts to 22MPH from right to left 90 degrees shooting SSW.

I fired first at 600 yards, making a hit on the plate at about 9 o'clock, then at the 24" plate at 675 yards, hitting ner center at 3 o'clock, one shot each plate.

Next the 6.5 Creedmore, it took 3 attempts to hit the 600 yard 18" plate at around 5 o'clock. He then fired 10 rounds at the 24" plate at 675 yards to make a hit at 7 o'clock.

The 308 also took 3 attempts to hit the 18" plate at 6 o'clock, the after 10 rounds fired at the 24" plate all missing he quit.

I cheated, there was no way to see bullet impacts on misses, also I knew at this time ofvyear that the tree line and ground contour produced a wind tunnel effect just behind the 600 yard plate and continued to the 675 yard plate that was nearly impossible to notice from the firing line. Wind speeds that day more than trippled. I drove the guys to the 675 yard mark and a gust of wind blew one of the guys glasses off.

I ask you what I ask them. How many 1,000 yard misses do you think happen?

 

[hunter67]

If you read the Deep creek report from 2016 I posted they kept track of first-round spotter hits. At 1000 yards on a 10" bull it was in the low 30% or under. You tell me how it's done in field conditions equal to or better?

 

[Fast14riot]

For me personally, I'm not going to watch 2 hours of someone rambling about ethics of long range hunting. At least not right now, maybe after a few drinks and to try and fall asleep I will, but I digress.

I make it a point to take my hunting rifle or rifles to at least two mid or long range matches every year. Typically I'll shoot a prone silhouette match to confirm my drops, turrets and load out to 500m (549y) and even confirm at 1K if needed. Truth be told, if I'm in western NV hunting mulies and I see a coyote at a ranged 750y, I know my gun and dope, I'm taking the shot. If its a dandy buck at 750y, I am trying to get closer if possible. For prized game like deer, even though I can make a cold bore "9, one on" at 1000y, thats still not good enough for me. My personal confidence level drops below 95ish% once I exceed 600ish yards.

Too many times have I read the self published hunting reports of taking a bobcat at 1127y with a 223 AR. Or a 3x2 buck at 937y with my grandpa's Weatherby only to wonder what was actually happening.

As a long range competitor who still struggles to keep all shots from a specialized rig, aimed from a dedicated rest, in a constrained environment, inside a 10" circle at 1000y, I'd still be willing to take any self proclaimed long range hunter on at the 1K line with cold bore shots for pink slips.

"Know your limits" is something that needs be made popular again.

 

[Jr solocam]

This one should be easy but it's not...it's a combination of knowledge, experience, and trigger time. I killed a 140ish WT buck at 605 yards. I didn't try to make it a long shot it happened. And I will say a well thought out long range shot is more ethical than shooting at the south end of a north bound deer.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I figure all the Fudd’s broke the ground to get this sport to where it is today!
Respect your elders!

 

[Orr89rocz]

It's easy to shred an old guy who likes to hear himself talk and speak in generalities of how he thinks things are. That said - the guy doing the shredding isn't much better, advocating what "can be done", rather than the results of the average guy taking ultra-long-range shots at big game. One only need look at the scores of an average PRS match to see that not everyone who calls themselves a "long range shooter" can hit what they aim at - particularly on the first shot. In big game hunting - we want the first shot to be it.

If a guy shoots at an animal 800 yards away and the animal runs off - many would have no idea whether they hit the animal if it is not showing obvious signs, and fewer (I think) would actually attempt to find a blood trail unless they were pretty sure of a hit. Unlike the trained sniper the moderator keeps referring to, the deer hunter seldom has a "spotter" laying next to him knowledgeable dope corrections. So, do they cut up their tag and go home? Look for another animal? That is where the other half of the ethical hunt comes into play. They have far more opportunities as they can shoot at anything withing sight, almost. But at what cost in terms of a higher percentage animals lost to wounds?

I probably sound "anti-long range", but I'm not. There are hunters who lose animals at what most would consider very short range. It really all comes down to the individual's skill set - whether 50 yards or 500. Any of these arguments are kind of moot when putting everyone in a group that shares the same sport. Like little league versus Major Leaque.

I lost several chances at deer last season because i was trying to get my phone setup on my spotter to record my shot but couldnt do it fast enough. I practiced alot at the exact field these deer were in and it would have been 650-675 yards but i did not want to take it without having it recorded to see where the shot hit. Although i was confident i would be on target, i still feel better about having a spotter

 

[NorCalMikie]

"Long range" ethics?? When I was a kid, (early teens) there was an old Cowboy living next door to us. Thinking he was from Texas? Had scars on his back where someone tied him up to a tree and beat him. A REAL cowboy.
Use to talk about hunting rabbits.
His routine? Chase (run) them down, feel them to see if they were fat enough to eat before deciding to take them or not.

 

[SKWERLZ]

this is one of my pet peeves .I build some accurate shooting rifles benchrest guns .that are capable
of 1/4 minute put the same gun on a 360 bench and you have moa rifle put the same rifle on a
bipod. and you got a moa + and I'm not taking about prone ether . I've killed a lot deer and 3
were shot prone. brush is too high most of the time. so how do you driver your shot. I know
one the best shots in Boise area he goes 9 out ten at 1000yds sometimes 10 per 10 .two years
ago he missed a bull at 740yds.wind got him. and it gets everybody .and that's where it gets
messily. and it was good that he missed. and not wounded the animal. 6.5 c/m is to small for that
range. I watch you tube. and those guys just shoot those deer to pieces . its not way keep are sport
going. its not right . I shoot almost week guns are tuned and I still don't do it .I see it 300prc bunch
hit a 4' by4' plate at mile. so a deer at 1200 ought to be easy right! wrong!

I have many thousands of shots at 1000 and well beyond, no way would I do a 1000 yard shot for a sporting hunt, I respect the animals too much.
Desperate situation,,,,yes.

 

[JEFFPPC]

If you read the Deep creek report from 2016 I posted they kept track of first-round spotter hits. At 1000 yards on a 10" bull it was in the low 30% or under. You tell me how it's done in field conditions equal to or better?

Thanks for posting real data. Very interesting, I would have GUESSED 50%, not close.

 

[Gargoyle]

If you read the Deep creek report from 2016 I posted they kept track of first-round spotter hits. At 1000 yards on a 10" bull it was in the low 30% or under. You tell me how it's done in field conditions equal to or better?

Indeed. I have a riot shooting steel at ELR distances. Murphy tickles me a bit on the range, but Murphy is an outright monkey on my back in the field. LOL. I also enjoy the "stalk" and get my kicks out of sneaking into a pack of hogs in the canyon thick brush to see the looks on their faces when they realize I'm not one of them!

 

[Prose]

I teach firearm safety. On Tuesday night we were talking about ethics (not related to this). A young lady asked me how far away was considered an unethical shot on game. I asked her if she'd ever shot a gun and she said "no" so I told her all shots on game would be unethical until she was proficient with a rifle. "What about after that?" "Depends on caliber and capabilities, wind, rifle ect." I said. She kept asking questions and her opinion was anything beyond 200 yards is unethical. There was a time where that was pretty much true! For a lot of hunters it still is.

I'm happy for anyone at any range so long as they are capable. Bad shots are always unethical IMO.

 

[DangerRanger]

If you read the Deep creek report from 2016 I posted they kept track of first-round spotter hits. At 1000 yards on a 10" bull it was in the low 30% or under. You tell me how it's done in field conditions equal to or better?

how much does a first round hit matter in that scenario?

(This is an actual question)

 

[David Milisock]

My LR dilemma is the flight time. That steel buffalo in my profile pic is a 3 second flight time with 300WM. Thats enough time for an animal to turn, take a step, charge at a nearby grazing animal and now I just shot it in the ass.

Flight time is a huge deal, not only with animal movement, (which I had happen a heart shot became a shoulder hit) but with accuracy.

Some people think the 6MM ARC or similar 6MM cartridge is a long range cartridge, NO. It's a low pressure AR 15 upgrade from the 5.56.

A long range 6MM is more like a 6MM Remington with a 107 clocking in at 3,500 FPS. That's 600 FPS faster then the ARC in a bolt gun reducing time of flight, therefore reducing bullet drop and wind deflection.

 

[DangerRanger]

I find discussing LRH ethics exhausting because there’s never any conclusion. Personally I watched good shooters at prs match clean a stage from 800-1300 right out of the gate. I’ve also watched a hunter shoot a bull in the stomach from 150 yards with a 300 run and then miss him repeatedly as he stood there.

I don’t think people people should shoot past their ability, but I’m not going to assume someone else’s ability either, and hard pass on gov regulations to decide what someone’s ability is. I just try to suggest people shoot more as I think that will help them realize their own limits more than anything else.

Im not going to tell someone to not feed their family, but if your criteria is shoot the shot to your ability imo there’s an absolute boat load of hunters out there we should be more worried about that the average practiced long range hunter. Is Shooting a pie plate off a bipod on the range bench adequate? No, it’s not imo yet we don’t see 50 threads a year about how bubba shouldn’t hunt.

Randy’s opinions aside because I’ve heard so much nonsense said by him it’s hard to take him seriously.

 

[David Milisock]

how much does a first round hit matter in that scenario?

(This is an actual question)

I can't get excited about shooting holes in paper.

 

[Albany Mountain]

Have you noticed on the "long range" hunting shows that 90% of the time
the camera pulls away from the animal after the shot and focuses on the shooter.
I've heard that the animal flops around a bit cause the 1 shot didn't kill it right away
and they don't want that on camera.
I'm pretty sure they could have gotten a closer shot.
They want to sell these magical $8000+ rigs as 1 shot kills at any distance.
I refuse to watch them.

I've always noticed that these hunting videos are usually close to roads, fences and you can here traffic on many of them. You never see videos of a bad shot, they must be deleted.

 

[moorepower]

It's easy to shred an old guy who likes to hear himself talk and speak in generalities of how he thinks things are. That said - the guy doing the shredding isn't much better, advocating what "can be done", rather than the results of the average guy taking ultra-long-range shots at big game. One only need look at the scores of an average PRS match to see that not everyone who calls themselves a "long range shooter" can hit what they aim at - particularly on the first shot. In big game hunting - we want the first shot to be it.

If a guy shoots at an animal 800 yards away and the animal runs off - many would have no idea whether they hit the animal if it is not showing obvious signs, and fewer (I think) would actually attempt to find a blood trail unless they were pretty sure of a hit. Unlike the trained sniper the moderator keeps referring to, the deer hunter seldom has a "spotter" laying next to him knowledgeable dope corrections. So, do they cut up their tag and go home? Look for another animal? That is where the other half of the ethical hunt comes into play. They have far more opportunities as they can shoot at anything withing sight, almost. But at what cost in terms of a higher percentage animals lost to wounds?

I probably sound "anti-long range", but I'm not. There are hunters who lose animals at what most would consider very short range. It really all comes down to the individual's skill set - whether 50 yards or 500. Any of these arguments are kind of moot when putting everyone in a group that shares the same sport. Like little league versus Major Leaque.

I'm shredding on "that old guy" because I have watched a few of his vids and I think he is a legend in his own mind. I am not a 1000 yd deer/ elk hunter, but "if" the wind was steady and light would have no issue with a 5-600 yd shot rested on a rock or something else sturdy, with my 7RM. When the wind is swirling, my max range is reduced accordingly.

 

[moorepower]

I teach firearm safety. On Tuesday night we were talking about ethics (not related to this). A young lady asked me how far away was considered an unethical shot on game. I asked her if she'd ever shot a gun and she said "no" so I told her all shots on game would be unethical until she was proficient with a rifle. "What about after that?" "Depends on caliber and capabilities, wind, rifle ect." I said. She kept asking questions and her opinion was anything beyond 200 yards is unethical. There was a time where that was pretty much true! For a lot of hunters it still is.

I'm happy for anyone at any range so long as they are capable. Bad shots are always unethical IMO.

I have been told that before, too. 200yds max. I have strings of over 20 PDogs in a row at over 200yds. A mans got to know his limitations and stick to them.

 

[1K6BRA]

Thank God I’m not an animal !!! Especially sense the 6.5 Creed came on the seen.

 

[sandwarrior]

That randy guy im sure is somewhat knowledgeable, experienced etc but he just seems like an old curmudgeon stuck in old ways with a closed mind. I know a lot of old guys like that.

He's the guy that said the 6.5 Creedmoor was never intended to be shot past 600 yds. It just isn't big enough.