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Barnes Match Burner bullets

Just bought some 6.5mm, 145 gr Barnes match burner bullets. Looked at the data sheets and noticed that they recommend a bullet jump of .050 to .250".

I have been using Burger and Hornandy bullets for 4 years and have found that a jump of .030 seems to be the best for my barrel and loads.

Why would the Barnes bullets require more jump than the others?

Anyone using the Barnes and found that they do require a larger jump?

I know that I won't know untill I do some ladder testing but don't want to waste my components if some one has proof that I should start at .050 and above.

Shooting 6.5 Creedmoor.
 
I shoot the 112 6mm Match Burners. I had not read that about needing a long jump. I started at .020 off the lands and did a ladder for powder and a seating deepth test and ended up at .030 jump. Then had the opportunity to take them out to 1200M on a steel range. They were holding the correct elevation when I was using the .620 G1 BC and I hit a 1'x1' steel plate at 1200M. It took 2 shots to get corrected for wind and hit it on the third. All 3 were holding a mid waterline on the plate. Needless to say I am very happy with them.

David
 
Well, maybe I am reading this wrong but here is the statement from Barnes website:

When selecting the cartridge overall length (COAL) we recommend starting with a minimum “jump” of .050” off of the lands. You can test different seating depths and find a “sweet spot” that your particular firearm prefers. We suggest working in at least .025” increments as follows seating the bullet deeper to allow a further jump. Your test plan could look something like this:

1st group- .050” jump
2nd group- .075” jump
3rd group- .100” jump
4th group- .125” jump
5th group- .150“ jump
6th group- * see below

This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” or other methods. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the cannelure rings. Remember there are many factors that may control or limit the seating depth for your application. You may find that you need to start at around 0.150” off the lands and are not able to get any closer due to limiting factors including proper neck tension and magazine length.

*In rifles that have long throats you may be limited on how close you are able to get the bullet to the lands. In these instances, it is not uncommon to find the best accuracy with a jump of .200” or more.
 
The Barnes info is a recommendation, not a requirement. The Match Burners should not be very sensitive to jump. A lot of work has been done with varying jumps and it seems that the consensus, if there is one, that somewhere in the 50 to 95 thousandths (my interpretation) range is a good forgiving range.

I would load 3@ 30, 55, & 80 and see which groups best.
 
Years ago and days gone by, we were all either jamming bullets or just touching the lands as preached by the benchrest shooters for being the proper methodology. Then the pendulum started it's universal swing back towards other thinking, maybe where we didn't have to jam every bullet to achieve accuracy.

I had a few conversations with Randy and Coni Brooks before actually putting hard earned money on expensive bullets. In the last one, Coni told me flat out that I needed to heed the suggestion to start at 0.050" off the lands. She was right.

Then I spoke with the folks at LostRiver J36 bullets about their entry into the long range accuracy venue. They immediately stated to me that 0.025" off the lands was a minimum distance and it might be further away. At $1.00/each in those days, I still didn't listen.

The first groups fired ignored their advice with results looking like 2-1/2" and larger with the bullets seated at the lands. I used the 0.025" off advice and the groups got smaller. Further yet yielded very small, round groups. Guess what? 0.040" off the lands! Then they closed their doors...

Every rifle is different and every load needs to be tuned. There are generic answers but the specifics need to worked on.

Enjoy! :)
 
Years ago and days gone by, we were all either jamming bullets or just touching the lands as preached by the benchrest shooters for being the proper methodology. Then the pendulum started it's universal swing back towards other thinking, maybe where we didn't have to jam every bullet to achieve accuracy.

I had a few conversations with Randy and Coni Brooks before actually putting hard earned money on expensive bullets. In the last one, Coni told me flat out that I needed to heed the suggestion to start at 0.050" off the lands. She was right.

Then I spoke with the folks at LostRiver J36 bullets about their entry into the long range accuracy venue. They immediately stated to me that 0.025" off the lands was a minimum distance and it might be further away. At $1.00/each in those days, I still didn't listen.

The first groups fired ignored their advice with results looking like 2-1/2" and larger with the bullets seated at the lands. I used the 0.025" off advice and the groups got smaller. Further yet yielded very small, round groups. Guess what? 0.040" off the lands! Then they closed their doors...

Every rifle is different and every load needs to be tuned. There are generic answers but the specifics need to worked on.

Enjoy! :)

Yeah, A year ago I would not hesitate doing a ladder test from .010 - .070, but with the shortage of reloading components I now am getting stingy with my bullets.

.030 is what I have found with the Burger and Hornandy bullets that my barrel likes.

I think I will start at .030 and go .02" between ladder, 3 round loads each 100 yds.
 
In a .260 Rem with a 29 inch barrel and using 40.0 gns of H4350 with the 140 gn Match Burners I get sub .5 MOA groups from 100 - 850. I use a .030 jump and the bullet seems to prefer around 2800 FPS
 
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I use the 171 gr Match Burner in my 7/08. I got my best accuracy ( high 3's low 4's) at .120 jump. I find them a very accurate bullet and good price also.
 
Well, maybe I am reading this wrong but here is the statement from Barnes website:

When selecting the cartridge overall length (COAL)...

You left out the first part of that FAQ entry:

1. Where do I seat the TSX, Tipped TSX and LRX bullets?

When loading a Barnes TSX, Tipped TSX or LRX bullet, your rifle may prefer a bullet jump of anywhere between (a minimum of) .050” up to .250” or more. This distance off the lands (rifling), aka "jump" may be limited to the rifles throat length, magazine length and bullet length.

When selecting the cartridge overall length (COAL) we recommend...

That statement appears to be aimed at (no pun intended) those specific all-copper bullet types, which does not include the Match Burners (lead core.)

Doesn't mean it won't work, though.
 
You left out the first part of that FAQ entry:



That statement appears to be aimed at (no pun intended) those specific all-copper bullet types, which does not include the Match Burners (lead core.)

Doesn't mean it won't work, though.

I didn't catch that.... Well there loaded and going to the range tomorrow.. We will see.

Thanks for pointing that out..
 
Well, todays testing was a bust. 8 test loads (3 each) with the Barnes 140 Match Burners.

Group #1 was with my Hornandy AMAX 140 gr. (4 shots) .10 off the lands This was also a test on the jump. I normally jump .05" and get a better group than the .10.

The other 8 were Barnes bullets. Seating the jump from .020" - 1.140"

Velocity was Avg 2638 FPS.

Anyone using this bullet have some data to share?

Does this bullet like a velocity faster or slower?
 

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I very recently got some of the 145 grain 6.5mm Match Burners. I've only made one range trip with them so far. I also got a couple pounds of StaBall 6.5 to try so, new bullet, new powder. For me anyway.

I am deliberately working on the low end of the published loading range, staying away from the maximum and hoping to find an accurate load that gives about 2650 fps. This should give me another 200 yards before going subsonic compared to my current pet load of 142 SMK and RL16 at 2748 avg. fps.

With the 145 MB's and the StaBall I started with 40.2 grains (actually 1 grain over Barnes's minimum) and went up in .5 gr. Increments, stopping at 43.7. Fired at 200 yards, temperature was 52 degrees.

Best group was 42.7 gr., .26 MOA with a velocity SD of 12.

Best SD and ES was 43.7 grains for an SD of 4 but the group was 1.09 MOA.

I chose for my next workup the 43.2 gr. load which turned in an SD of 9 and a .47 MOA group. Velocity was an average of 2,685 fps for that load.

I just randomly chose a jump of .040 to start with and that's what all of these were.

When I opened the first box of Match Burners I weighed ten of them and measured base-to-ogive of the same ten. The extreme spread for weight on those ten was .35 gr. and the standard deviation was .12. Average weight was 145.1 gr. The b.t.o. measurement averaged .752 inch. The b.to. SD was .003 and the ES was .008.

Something I've never done before; I measured the base to ogive for an entire box of 100 and sorted them into 3 groups, just for fun. The shortest b.t.o. was .747" (only one in the box) and the longest was .755", again only one. All the others fell within the range of .748" to .754". Probably 70% of them were between .748" and .750".

I have never measured bullets before so I have no idea how this compares to other “match” bullets but it seems fairly consistent to me.

All that might be a bit more than you were asking, but there it is. I guess more to your question, a .040 jump initially has turned in promising results. More testing to follow!

Oh and today I stopped to pick up anther pound of StaBall 6.5 because, again, initial results look promising. But then I was standing there thinking it's been a long time since I've seen RL16 anywhere (I have 5 lbs. Remaining) so I went what-the-heck and bought an 8 lb.-er. It was cheaper by 9 bucks a pound that way too. “But honey, I saved 72 bucks!”
 
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I very recently got some of the 145 grain 6.5mm Match Burners. I've only made one range trip with them so far. I also got a couple pounds of StaBall 6.5 to try so, new bullet, new powder. For me anyway.

I am deliberately working on the low end of the published loading range, staying away from the maximum and hoping to find an accurate load that gives about 2650 fps. This should give me another 200 yards before going subsonic compared to my current pet load of 142 SMK and RL16 at 2748 avg. fps.

With the 145 MB's and the StaBall I started with 40.2 grains (actually 1 grain over Barnes's minimum) and went up in .5 gr. Increments, stopping at 43.7. Fired at 200 yards, temperature was 52 degrees.

Best group was 42.7 gr., .26 MOA with a velocity SD of 12.

Best SD and ES was 43.7 grains for an SD of 4 but the group was 1.09 MOA.

I chose for my next workup the 43.2 gr. load which turned in an SD of 9 and a .47 MOA group. Velocity was an average of 2,685 fps for that load.

I just randomly chose a jump of .040 to start with and that's what all of these were.

When I opened the first box of Match Burners I weighed ten of them and measured base-to-ogive of the same ten. The extreme spread for weight on those ten was .35 gr. and the standard deviation was .12. Average weight was 145.1 gr. The b.t.o. measurement averaged .752 inch. The b.to. SD was .003 and the ES was .008.

Something I've never done before; I measured the base to ogive for an entire box of 100 and sorted them into 3 groups, just for fun. The shortest b.t.o. was .747" (only one in the box) and the longest was .755", again only one. All the others fell within the range of .748" to .754". Probably 70% of them were between .748" and .750".

I have never measured bullets before so I have no idea how this compares to other “match” bullets but it seems fairly consistent to me.

All that might be a bit more than you were asking, but there it is. I guess more to your question, a .040 jump initially has turned in promising results. More testing to follow!

Oh and today I stopped to pick up anther pound of StaBall 6.5 because, again, initial results look promising. But then I was standing there thinking it's been a long time since I've seen RL16 anywhere (I have 5 lbs. Remaining) so I went what-the-heck and bought an 8 lb.-er. It was cheaper by 9 bucks a pound that way too. “But honey, I saved 72 bucks!”

Thanks for your input. After 3 years of 6.5 and 6mm CM shooting I have settled on H4350 and 40.5 with the Hornady's 140 (6.5) and 105 (6mm). Bergers and Sierra's just didn't work for me and gave me close results as the Barnes did.

Haven't measured the weight and length of the bullets. Just got them and loaded up 24 rounds to see how they did.

As i said before I was not impressed with the results but also have not really tested them with just this first try. I was kinda hoping for the Magic bullet with the higher BC than what I am using now and the A-MAX bullets are out of productions and i am running low on them. Was looking for a replacement.

I guess my next try will be on the 300-600 yd range to see if maybe they will stabilize on longer shots.

I was hoping that some one has been using these and found the sweet spot on velocity. I am close to your FPS, maybe just a bump on the powder will help.
 
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I didn't have the best results with the ELDM's or the RDF's either and I tried. I really tried. The SMK just worked out so easily with minimum effort.

Just goes to show, each rifle is it's own animal. Or, I'm just...different!
 
I'm completely sympathetic to the idea that components are so hard to come by that it is painful to burn ammo and bbls on load development. I just don't know how to avoid it when pushing performance comes up or when the bullets or the barrels are unknown.

I think the only way to avoid a lot of it is to stick with standardized high quality barrels and chambers. That is possible in some games, but not in all. Things would get boring fast if we only shot the same things. Then along come politics, and here we are.

So, for next time when/if things loosen up... some food for thought...

Consider the differences in test methods, one being the test style where you take a stab at some seating depths and shoot groups, the other where you take a wide sweep with a long string of very fine steps.

What I have observed, is that folks tend to try and minimize the number of shots by putting too much space between seating depths being tested. The result can be hit an miss by getting unlucky where those selected seating depth intervals may land slightly off the nodes or the harmonics and you miss the beat.

I would suggest that the very fine step single sweep has been a better method for me, than attempting groups with coarse steps.

The fine steps tend to show if there is actually a stable node that would be durable, and also tend to uncover more than one node in most instances. Then I go back and verify that selected seating depth with groups and test for the boundaries of that node to know when I should consider re-tuning.

This means the steps fine, like no more than 0.005" per step, and sometimes they are just 0.003" per step. The sweeps can be wide in situations where we have no background with the chamber or barrel, in other words when we don't already have a pretty good idea. When a barrel is a copy of one we know, we can get away with a narrower sweep.

I realize that if you make the seating depth steps smaller between groups, the two methods tend to merge, but by then you are also burning lots more rounds than necessary.

I also find that folks tend to run these group style tests at shorter distances to try and avoid with effects. A fine step string is best run at the longest important distance while only considering vertical, and then verified with group testing with the best results from the fine step string.

Some bullets and jumps are known to play well together, others are unknowns. If you take the example of a 6mm Berger 105 Hybrid, there is some similarity between many different cartridges using that same bullet that would tend to say the bullet doesn't mind being jumped. You can see this in the Precision Rifle Blog Seating Depth articles to some extent. I'll link one below and you will find the rest on that site.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/21/bullet-jump-and-seating-depth-reloading-best-practices/

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/04/05/bullet-jump-load-development-data/

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/04/15/18-shot-bullet-jump-challenge/

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/29/bullet-jump-load-development/

I will also add that with the Barnes TSX and TTSX, I was surprised at the jump those liked, but as an R&D guy I learned to avoid my own bias and trust the results. It turned out for me, that this observation has repeated across many rifles and different cartridges.

Along the lines of trusting those results, I noticed the advise given by @46and2 to be sure to clean well between switching brands of jacket materials. I realize Matchburners are not the same jacket material as their monolithic copper bullets, but I found that I did have an effect from jumping between bullets and powders when they were not similar and I have made it my own policy to clean well if I am switching between bullet brands or even powder types (ball to extruded for example).

When I was younger, I tried to get away with thrown ball powder charges for shorter line ammo, then switch to extruded for the longer distances. In more than one rifle, I learned I didn't get away with that unless I cleaned well between those relays where I was switching powder or bullet types. So now I just caution you to run that testing yourself some day, but for now start with a clean bbl when you are making type changes of powder or bullet materials.

Again, just food for thought. YMMV
 
Stability may be an issue with these bullets as they are very long. Lower velocities, cold temperatures might be factors. As far as I know factory rifles in 6.5 CM are commonly 1:8 twist but if you have a 1:10 that coud be an issue as well. Just food for thought.
 
AccelR8 I didn't have the best results with the ELDM's or the RDF's

I have two Savage 6.5CM's and the 140 RDF with 43gr of 6.5 StaBall became my best load of all I tried. However, I cannot get the 140gr Barnes Match Burners to shoot as good as the RDF's so far. Going to try RL-16 this week.
 
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