Once Fired Brass Problems

[D-4297]

When I ordered my Whidden Custom F/L Bushing Die , I had the opportunity to speak to John at the SWN and he told me to send him 3 cases I had fired in the rifle that the Die was being made for . The only prep I was instructed to do was wipe the cases off and punch the primers out . Have had zero issues with the Die from day one , and it's still working perfectly three and a half years , and two barrels later . I did run into a issue with a friends rifle , where the barrel had "expanded" in diameter near the extractor groove after 4,600 rounds of F-TR competition , and his old cases would not fit in his "new" barrel , similar to this "Die" issue . It sounds as though that for what-ever reason , the die is not correctly "sized" , which I find doubtful , or the dirt / brass shavings is creating the issue . Check the new un-fired cases diameter near the base for correct size , and check the "fired" cases at the same area . There appears to be more going on here than just scratches .

 

[Martin52]

All the scratched cased returned to normal dimensions after full length sizing although many required a bit more effort. Another possible explanation for the scratch mark is the One-Shot didn't make it all the way down the case body although the die was also sprayed.

All cases will be reloaded soon with half a grain less powder and we'll see what happens.

Appreciate the comments.

 

[Old Navy]

If the die contacts the S/H the shoulder would be bumped back a few 'thou further than desired. It should certainly chamber ok but would be too short.

I think a set of Redding Comp shell holders would help.

 

[Old Navy]

Narrowing this down to:
New brass - still have to check volume.
Hot load - pressure closer to max than moderate, will back off with these cases next time around. Used 44.8 gr H4895 some time ago and that grouped well. Took it up to 45.6 before settling on 45.2.
Grit - on a fired case getting into the die (Lyman media most likely)
FLS Die - custom, based on three 3x fired cases - using 3x fired cases resulted in die being oversize? Could still have produced scratches due to grit whilst being oversize. Re-checked die mfr website - does not state 3 x fired.

Have since used copper cleaner on the die, flushed then polished with Iosso and left lubed in the box.

Thanks all. Very helpful.

Martin

Martin, 3X fired is what Harrell's asked me for. I

I'm using Lyman media with corn cob, its green in colour, not the red version. Will try the local pet store if you think what I'm using is polishing the brass.

The Lyman green is my favorite. Takes a little longer is all.

 

[Martin52]

I think a set of Redding Comp shell holders would help.

Yes, I have and use them. When I set my FLS die, I start with a +0.010 comp s/holder together with a gap of 0.006 between the top of the shell holder and the base of the die. I then start sizing, measuring and turning in the die until I get the shoulder bump I require. The die has a Lee lock ring with rubber O ring, so it's not locked conventionally by a locking bolt through the ring as is standard on many dies.

 

[muleystalker]

Just cleaned the die, copper cleaner and Iosso. Looks good. Any grit was probably tumbling media that I know occasionally get stuck inside the case near the flash hole.
Will be dropping the load at the next reloading session and keeping this batch of cases seperate until I'm comfortable they're OK, or not.
The only thing different was that the cases were new, Lapua palma.
Regarding the gap between the shell holder and the die, interesting that you prefer this. It's something I have queried but has never really manifested itself in any problem to date, so maybe it is OK.

First off get rid of the One Shot and use Imperial die wax.

Second- after using IOSSO or any other polishing compound on the die clean with brake cleaner or acetone to make sure you remove any remains of the compound, it is an abrasive. Also clean die with the same every few 100 rounds or if die has been sitting for some time between use.

Third- A lot of tumbling media has polishing compound or jewelers rouge in it, after tumbling cases with it it will leave the polishing compound on the cases which will transfer to your dies over use and end up causing brass galling which will cause these scratches and make high spots on the brass. The more it goes unchecked the more the brass builds up in the die and the bigger the marks get. I never clean my brass just wipe them with a clean rag before loading.

 

[Martin52]

First off get rid of the One Shot and use Imperial die wax.

Second- after using IOSSO or any other polishing compound on the die clean with brake cleaner or acetone to make sure you remove any remains of the compound, it is an abrasive. Also clean die with the same every few 100 rounds or if die has been sitting for some time between use.

Third- A lot of tumbling media has polishing compound or jewelers rouge in it, after tumbling cases with it it will leave the polishing compound on the cases which will transfer to your dies over use and end up causing brass galling which will cause these scratches and make high spots on the brass. The more it goes unchecked the more the brass builds up in the die and the bigger the marks get. I never clean my brass just wipe them with a clean rag before loading.

Cleaned the die again using Iosso, patched dry and left it coated with Ballistol - will spray some brake cleaner though it before the next use. I generally give my dies a good clean regularly but will be changing the media to the pet shop variety as suggested above, should avoid the problem with polishing compound being left on the cases.

Thanks.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

First off get rid of the One Shot and use Imperial die wax.

Second- after using IOSSO or any other polishing compound on the die clean with brake cleaner or acetone to make sure you remove any remains of the compound, it is an abrasive. Also clean die with the same every few 100 rounds or if die has been sitting for some time between use.

Third- A lot of tumbling media has polishing compound or jewelers rouge in it, after tumbling cases with it it will leave the polishing compound on the cases which will transfer to your dies over use and end up causing brass galling which will cause these scratches and make high spots on the brass. The more it goes unchecked the more the brass builds up in the die and the bigger the marks get. I never clean my brass just wipe them with a clean rag before loading.

Totally agree. I only use the plain yellow corn cob media and never add polishing compound. Don’t even clean or change the media until it stops making cases clean. One shade from jet black at the moment but still working.

But I usually don’t clean cases in a tumbler after I have found a load I like because I like to leave the carbon residue in them. Just clean the necks and shoulders up with steel wool and run a few strokes with a cleaning brush in the necks to smooth out the carbon.

 

[cw308]

Martin
I F/L size only with a .002 case headspace , I like full contact from die to Shellholder . I use the Redding Competition Shellholders , set of 5 they have lower deck heights .002 on each from standard . You shouldn't have to do all that extra case cleaning to size , I still feel it's your lube . I wet tumble all my brass is clean inside and out, no extra prep , I hand lube my cases with the RCBS Case Lube.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Totally agree. I only use the plain yellow corn cob media and never add polishing compound. Don’t even clean or change the media until it stops making cases clean. One shade from jet black at the moment but still working.

But I usually don’t clean cases in a tumbler after I have found a load I like because I like to leave the carbon residue in them. Just clean the necks and shoulders up with steel wool and run a few strokes with a cleaning brush in the necks to smooth out the carbon.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-3-7-...shing-Hand-Sanding-Pads-2-Pack-7448/301118025
I have been using these pads instead of the steel wool, seems to work good and smooth up the deburr and chamfered edges too.

 

[LHSmith]

FWIW- Hornady also ( likewise Whidden) requires 3 pcs. of fired cases from your chamber. It stands to reason that using multiple times fired cases will result in a die that is too large near the base- the neck sizing only malady.

 

[muleystalker]

FWIW- Hornady also ( likewise Whidden) requires 3 pcs. of fired cases from your chamber. It stands to reason that using multiple times fired cases will result in a die that is too large near the base- the neck sizing only malady.

Every custom die I have had made wanted 3 cases fired 3x so it was fully fire formed. They all said 2x fired was the very least but 3x fired was preferred.

 

[Webster]

Every custom die I have had made wanted 3 cases fired 3x so it was fully fire formed. They all said 2x fired was the very least but 3x fired was preferred.

If you fire and resize them 3X does the resizing mess up the measurements they want. I would think that if I could chamber a fired case I would reload it without putting it in a die. 3 times. What's the details for this?

 

[Martin52]

Martin
I F/L size only with a .002 case headspace , I like full contact from die to Shellholder . I use the Redding Competition Shellholders , set of 5 they have lower deck heights .002 on each from standard . You shouldn't have to do all that extra case cleaning to size , I still feel it's your lube . I wet tumble all my brass is clean inside and out, no extra prep , I hand lube my cases with the RCBS Case Lube.

The problem is with this die, doing that (full contact die to shellholder) will bump the shoulder back too much, ~ 0.006, so I get 1.625 when I need 1.631, hence the need for a gap. I do use the comp s/holders.

 

[JFrank]

The problem is with this die, doing that (full contact die to shellholder) will bump the shoulder back too much, ~ 0.006, so I get 1.625 when I need 1.631, hence the need for a gap. I do use the comp s/holders.

Perhaps I've overlooked something, so forgive me if so but I have dies that set up with .007 between the shell holder and the bottom of the die also .004 , both size perfectly. Perhaps the difference is the radial dimensions of the brass at the base. ( fat brass) it's reasonably easy to compare dies or brass at the case should junction or the base/.200 datum.

 

[cw308]

Martin
When using the #10 comp. shellholder with full contact your still over sizing ? I don't like any gap between die and shellholder. I also like the Lee lock ring with the o-ring , I use a #17 o-ring on other brand lockrings ,
it removes all the slack in the threads without a bind , like when locking them down without the o-ring . Is your ejector plunger bottoming even with the bolt face? The OD of the scratched cases are the same as the cases that chamber smooth ? Without having a chamber that is cut long I would think you could size with full contact using the Comp. Shellholde.
Seems more of a problem with the cases in question , then a problem with the rifle , die , sizing or brass cleaning. Try 0000 steel wool to remove the scratches and rechamber . Don't think it's worth the time and energy to go through it every time you shoot the problem brass but at least you know it's the brass. Don't beat yourself up.
Chris

 

[JFrank]

Top photo is a piece of once fired Lapua Palma brass and is representative of 25 shot recently. All these cases were hard to FLS in my custom die, see the scratch marks. The die was perfectly clean. There is a gap of around 0.010 between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die when bumping back 0.001-0.002. This seems to be causing the unsized portion just above the extractor groove.

Load was moderate, 45.2 gr H4895 with Berger 155.5 Full Bore projectiles in FTR rifle, 30 inch barrel.

At the same time, noticed the shiny circle shown on the bolt face at 1 'o'clock in the lower picture.

Seems to indicate too hot a load but I have been using this for a while now. The only difference is that the cases are from a new box bought recently. I am thinking this is a brass problem, maybe.

Thoughts ?

One batch of new brass is more difficult to size than the previous batch using the same dies and same set up that we are assuming was working fine until the new brass was introduced.
Sounds like a brass variance.

 

[Martin52]

....Perhaps the difference is the radial dimensions of the brass at the base. ( fat brass) it's reasonably easy to compare dies or brass at the case should junction or the base/.200 datum.

This particular custom die was dimensioned off new brass fired 3 times (and neck sized only between firings) so the radial dimension is likely fat. Going to try and get an accurate measure on that.

 

[Martin52]

Martin
When using the #10 comp. shellholder with full contact your still over sizing ? I don't like any gap between die and shellholder. I also like the Lee lock ring with the o-ring , I use a #17 o-ring on other brand lockrings ,
it removes all the slack in the threads without a bind , like when locking them down without the o-ring . Is your ejector plunger bottoming even with the bolt face? The OD of the scratched cases are the same as the cases that chamber smooth ? Without having a chamber that is cut long I would think you could size with full contact using the Comp. Shellholde.
Seems more of a problem with the cases in question , then a problem with the rifle , die , sizing or brass cleaning. Try 0000 steel wool to remove the scratches and rechamber . Don't think it's worth the time and energy to go through it every time you shoot the problem brass but at least you know it's the brass. Don't beat yourself up.
Chris

Yes, with the #10 comp. shellholder there is still a gap, I will need to check with a feeler gage to confirm exactly.
I also use the Lee lock ring, I like it for the reasons you mention. When I know the die is sizing with the required bump I lower the ram to let the case sit fully in the die then tighten the lock ring down. every case that follows is sized consistently.
Will have to check whether the ejector is bottoming even with the bolt face, when cleaning it I have not noticed anything unusual, its a Barnard P bolt/action.

 

[cw308]

Why don't you have full contact on the #10 comp. Shellholde? I make sure all the comp. shellholde have full contact. That's the purpose ,the deck heights are .002 on each lower than the normal shellholder, #10 being the lowest.