Resizing Accuracy Issues, .223

[Italianusmc_ny]

Hello All in Shooter Land,

Need some help.
Ive been reloading now for about 2yrs and have never come across this issue before.

Im using Norma Brass in my Savage 12 LRPV (1-9).
Loads are 24.4 Varget, CCI Standard Primers and 77gr SMK loading to an O-give length of 1.850.

Now, using new brass; just priming, dropping my powder and seating the bullet out to 200yds I get literally I ragged hole measuring .4".
Now I have once fired brass and do all my usual prep work before bump sizing.

- I deprime
- I wet tumble for 90mins
- I dry in the over for 20mins at 325* and once out and cooled, inspect for any pins inside the cases.

Im using Redding S-Full Size Dies with a .224 bushing.
Using my Sinclair shoulder gauge, I bump an average .004 (test chamber the first and last brass, all fit nicely)
After all brass is sized I check to see if any need trimming. ( Usually Not Needed)
I chamfer and debur
I seat primers and then follow my usual routine after that. ( Powder and Seat Bullets)

Now my field results on paper at 200 is 1.5" groups at 200.


WHAT THE F%$K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What am I missing or doing wrong?

Ive done this for 3 consecutive weekends, taking new brass, firing and reloading. Each result is virtually identical.
I will post pics of the groups later today.

 

[shotdown]

You’re using a .224 bushing? What does the neck measure when loaded? I use a .246 bushing with my Redding dies. You probably have too much neck tension.

 

[Rsadams]

42.4 gr of varget...? 24.4 maybe..? Be hard to cram all that in a .223...lol
1/9 MIGHT be a little slow for 77gr bullets... Have you tried the 69smk.? I know their ok in 1/9 twist...
This is just me but I would turn the oven down to like 150 to dry brass...
I trim all my brass to one length everytime , also just me...
You can go from .004 to .002 when resizing and there shouldn't be any problems for shooting paper... For defensive or hunting the .004 is insurance it will chamber in a critical situation....

 

[Italianusmc_ny]

You’re using a .224 bushing? What does the neck measure when loaded? I use a .246 bushing with my Redding dies. You probably have too much neck tension.

I thought about this as well, so I tried the following:
- Tried my RCBS Match Sizing die with the expander ball. Almost the same results on paper at 200 with the Redding Die with .244 bushing
- I did the other day order a .253 bushing to try and match the same neck dimensions on the virgin brass. Fingers crossed its this simple, but we all know it may or may not be the simple answer.

 

[Ned Ludd]

A couple things you might consider with your prep: 30-40 min is plenty of time tumbling with the SS pins and will minimize case mouth peening. I also don't really see the need to bake cases for 20 min at 350 degrees to dry them out. If you shake the excess water out and roll the cases in a towel first, 10-15 min at any temperature over boiling (212 degrees F) ought to be plenty. Finally, the bushing size may be an issue, as noted by others above. Certainly different brands of brass have different neck wall thicknesses and therefore may require different bushings to maintain a given neck tension (interference fit). With Lapua brass, which has fairly thick neck walls, I've found that bushing from about .246" to .244" seem to give optimum results.

The second thing that caught my attention is that you're using the exact same load in virgin and fire-formed brass, and expecting the precision (results) to be the same. In my hands, .223 Rem loads typically need to be dropped at least 0.1 to 0.3 gr after the brass has been fire-formed in order to maintain constant velocity and keep the load in the "optimal window". I believe part of this is due to some amount of energy being required to move the shoulder forward the typical .006" to .008" observed between virgin and fired .223 brass. Only pushing the shoulder back a thousandth or two means less energy goes into expanding the case, and more behind the bullet. In any event, it may simply be that going from virgin to fire-formed brass, you have moved out of the sweet spot. A quick re-visit to charge weight/velocity and seating depth should readily confirm/deny whether this was the culprit for the change in precision.

 

[243winxb]

Volume on the reloaded brass has changed compared to new unfired. About 4% larger.

The powder charge maximum at Hodgdon is 23.7 grs. with the 77 gr Sierra hpbt.
.

Reduce the powder charge and work up, is what i would do.

Im using Redding S-Full Size Dies with a .224 bushing.

more like a .246 bushing. https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/58-bushing-range-chart
Sizing 1/2 of the neck works for me.

 

[argrendel]

So, you’re not sizing your new brass? I made the mistake of doing that once and could pull most of the bullets out with my fingers. You may be pulling your hair out now, but with your consistent results with new brass, and the advice above, I believe you are very close to having a great shooting rifle!

 

[searcher]

I'd try backing your load off a few grains, measure your loaded case at the neck (at close to the mouth as you can). Use a sizing bushing no more than .003" smaller than that. Don't bump your shoulders back any more than .002" from the LONGEST measurement using a Hornady or other brand headspace measuring tool. Load your bullets to where they are .010" longer than where they make contact as determined using Hornady comparator tool or other brand. When you load the round in the chamber and close the bolt, the bullet will be pushed into the case until the bolt is completely closed. This is called a "soft jamb". I too would go down to the lighter 69 SMK bullet, though you can try it with the 77 you have. I'd then load a series of ten cases with a particular powder charge, then up the charge 3/10th of a grain till you get up close to where max charge should be. You can do another loading, setting the bullets to .010" off the lands. That gives you two five-shot groups with each powder charge so you don't have to re-do the test if you get interrupted in your string of fire, a breeze comes up, etc.

If none of these loads gives you something to want to tweak a bit more - don't waste your time. Either swap out the bullet or the powder. When firing, stop shooting higher powder charges if pressure signs develop. When you are unhappy with 1 1/2" groups at 200 (or 3/4" MOA), it's worth noting that not all powder/bullet combos will give you what you want. Primers and brass make a difference too - but usually not nearly as much as the powder or bullet. I found a Lyman turbo brass drying setup on sale at Midwayusa a while back for like $30.00. Something to consider as an alternative to the oven. Semper Fi.

 

[sparkyv]

So, you’re not sizing your new brass? I made the mistake of doing that once and could pull most of the bullets out with my fingers. You may be pulling your hair out now, but with your consistent results with new brass, and the advice above, I believe you are very close to having a great shooting rifle!

Yes, this was the question I had.

 

[Italianusmc_ny]

These are my speed results both new and once fired.

 

[243winxb]

I dry in the over for 20mins at 325*

I would not oven dry.
Redding bushing? Is the size stamped on the bushing towards the case mouth?

 

[Italianusmc_ny]

No, I have the stamped markings face up.

 

[Oso]

If you are shooting through a bolt gun then 20-25 minutes should result in cases being white gold. If shooting through AR15 with suppressor then maybe 30-45 minutes if very dirty. Stand the cases upright in a tuperware container and either leave in the sun or under a ceiling fan. It will be dry . Definitely don't place in oven that you cook food in...toxic residues. If you are OCD and must have brass dry fast then nock out the primers and buy a food dehydrator.

 

[mensajd]

No, I have the stamped markings face up.

Stamped side down is the canonical orientation. Stamping can make the surface of the bushing out of flat so you want that side down where it won’t affect the [floating] bushing/die interface.

 

[Italianusmc_ny]

Stamped side down is the canonical orientation. Stamping can make the surface of the bushing out of flat so you want that side down where it won’t affect the [floating] bushing/die interface.

Well I'm cleaning out the dies tonight so FACE DOWN back in the bushing goes.
In a YouTube video it was said face up, that's why I did it.

Ohh Well
Thanks

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Some times the bushing maker put a "lead in" chamfer on their bushings that why they say stamped side up. Check this before you flip it over if it does have a chamfer and it's stamped on the top you can file or sand it smooth to prevent it from cocking. Whidden has an arrow on theirs and its stamped on the side.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

I would not pay a lot of attention to velocity until you have about 200 rounds down the tube.

How are you measuring you powder. Are you dropping it or using a good scale?

Try full length sizing. Many agree that it is the best way to size brass.

Hodgdon list Varget as 23.7 as a maximum load so it appears you are way over the limit. Check your primers for flattening or cratered. Again, Hodgdon states that at 23.7 grs of powder the velocity is around 2737 fps. 200 fps indicates a very high powder load. More like 2.5 grs of extra powder in there.

First rule of reloading. Never exceed the maximum listed powder charge. Always start low and work up slowly. I would like to see photos of you spent primers. They will talk to you, if you understand their language.

 

[Texas10]

If we can assume that your load is a bit on the hot side, and when loaded in new cases you get the best accuracy. But in fire formed brass it's not so great, then I'm in the same corner as Nedd, you're load had gone over the top, so back down a bit.

I am also curious as to how you're stuffing that much Varget in the case and still seating a 77 gr bullet? Is it possible your bullets are migrating out inconsistently after seating. I had that problem with 69g Lapua seated +.005 and 25.4 g of Varget. Bullets would not hold CBTO, powder was too compressed. So dropped down to next lower node, 24.6 and solved the problem.

 

[rammac]

Because the Hodgdon data uses different seating depth, different case (Winchester small primer), maybe a different bullet ( you don't know since they don't say), and a different barrel length your results wont match theirs.

Using your specifications I'd try around 23.3 grains of Varget and then experiment up and down a couple of tenths. As mentioned, I'd work with the fire-formed cases, not the new cases. Even if you resize your new cases I wouldn't expect them to perform the same as a fire-formed case.

At 23.3 grains you should see velocities of around 2830 fps, less than what you are seeing now but a safer load, your current load with 24.4 grains is way over the SAAMI max for your rifle. The 23.3 grain load is right at the SAAMI max (in regards to pressure) but it's a safer load and it should be pretty close to the next lower accuracy node.

 

[Texas10]

Your post got me to do some investigation. Got a bit of a surprise when I seated a 73 grain Berger OTM and my favorite Lapua 69 g Scenar L.

On the left is the Berger and on the right is the Lapua. Both were seated to touching the lands in a clean barrel. My method leaves nothing to chance, so 100% sure I got an accurate measurement. Notice how the lighter bullet intrudes much more into the case, while the heavier bullet leaves more room for powder. Learned something today, thanks to the OP's post. Bullet on the far left looks like it's not even with seated bullet. That is parallax due to camera position and bullet laying on paper, instead of in a cartridge case.