NRA new 2019 E Target 7 second delay rule?

[Bindi2]

Yes that is a problem that can occur. As and aside, for the open face etargets, Palma or FTR competitors using the 155gr class bullet need to avoid the old Sierra 155 and Nosler 155 at 1000yds.

A big tick for closed sound chamber ETs. Cheap price point does have its problems as well.

 

[spclark]

7-second delay was in place at an NRA Regional long range match I shot last June in MN. ShotMarker targets were being used for the first time at this range too.

The delay caught me by surprise (I shoot Palma, mostly) and had never experienced a delay when using an ET system.

It can be enabled or disabled according to what rules are in place under which a match is being run, according to what I’ve been told.

Try shooting two or three to a mound if you really want to get good fast at reading conditions.

 

[chkunz]

The updated (but not yet finalized) rules to which you provided a link above are High Power Rules. F-Class is a subdivision of High Power. If the new e-target rules were specific to F-Class, they would have been in the F-Class section. However, they're not - they're in the general High Power rules (i.e. 4.1, 9.25, etc.). I think you can be pretty certain the rules apply to everything under the High Power umbrella, including F-Class.

FWIW: F-TR and F-Open are the two distinct classes within F-Class as a whole.

Take a look at the wording in the new rule. I have copied and pasted below but the red did not copy. Anyway, it may be that the rule needs to be relocated under F Class but it has been changed to make it clear(?) that it pertains to F Class only. The words "and other competitions" that previously appeared after "In F Class" have been deleted.


Change (e) and (f) to (f) and (g), respectively. Change (g) to (h) as follows:


(h) ..........In F-Class .......a seven (7) second delay in the


presentation of the last shot fired on the firing line monitor

 

[Ned Ludd]

Take a look at the wording in the new rule. I have copied and pasted below but the red did not copy. Anyway, it may be that the rule needs to be relocated under F Class but it has been changed to make it clear(?) that it pertains to F Class only. The words "and other competitions" that previously appeared after "In F Class" have been deleted.


Change (e) and (f) to (f) and (g), respectively. Change (g) to (h) as follows:


(h) ..........In F-Class .......a seven (7) second delay in the


presentation of the last shot fired on the firing line monitor

You may be right; the rule certainly needs clarification, why is probably why GSS posted in the first place (duh!). I didn't catch that specific wording. In the past, rules that were specific to F-Class ended up in the F-Class section. I can't imagine why they would have put it in the High Power section, if it was applicable to F-Class only. I also can't imagine why such a rule should only apply to F-Class, and not everyone shooting in High Power. My understanding is that the intent of the rule was to prevent the implementation of E-target use from allowing shooters to markedly increase their firing cadence as compared to what has historically been allowed by typical pit/target service. The effect of E-targets on firing cadence would be the same regardless of whether you were a Conventional or F-Class shooter. Nonetheless, the official implementation of E-targets is still clearly "work in progress", so I wouldn't be surprised if there are modifications to the rules for their use over time.

 

[r bose]

You may be right; the rule certainly needs clarification, why is probably why GSS posted in the first place (duh!). I didn't catch that specific wording. In the past, rules that were specific to F-Class ended up in the F-Class section. I can't imagine why they would have put it in the High Power section, if it was applicable to F-Class only. I also can't imagine why such a rule should only apply to F-Class, and not everyone shooting in High Power. My understanding is that the intent of the rule was to prevent the implementation of E-target use from allowing shooters to markedly increase their firing cadence as compared to what has historically been allowed by typical pit/target service. The effect of E-targets on firing cadence would be the same regardless of whether you were a Conventional or F-Class shooter. Nonetheless, the official implementation of E-targets is still clearly "work in progress", so I wouldn't be surprised if there are modifications to the rules for their use over time.

Like I said in my first post. Clear as mud and open to various interpretations.

 

[GSS]

Levity Alert.. >>
Glad we are finally getting around to the purpose of this thread seeking clarification on this rule and how it is being applied at matches those here have attended..

Zero responses to the question on
how this new rule is actually being interpreted and applied in matches any of you are shooting in, in your areas gives me a fair guess on what the current situation is.

I posted above where Aaron is tied up a the World Championships but from his past history in dealing with him sanctioning matches I am confident he will get back to me when he can to clarify the rule.

 

[FatBoy]

I couldn't agree with Ned more. F class is just a rifle category of highpower. Half MOA targets aside, we are all shooting the same game and should be treated equally in all manners that aren't specific to the rifle category and smaller X ring. Then again, maybe we should all shoot the same target too....

 

[GSS]

I couldn't agree with Ned more. F class is just a rifle category of highpower. Half MOA targets aside, we are all shooting the same game and should be treated equally in all manners that aren't specific to the rifle category and smaller X ring. Then again, maybe we should all shoot the same target too....

So are you saying sling shooters should shoot on F class targets so we are all shooting the same game ?

 

[243Mendoza]

This is the type of information shooters need to have, both service rifle and palma shooters, shooting 1000 yards. If we had known this we probably would have been better prepared using different projectiles.

Good catch. AR15s using the 80gr bullets may have the same problem.

I agree that match directors using open face targets, need to warn participants in their match bulletins of the need for required bullet muzzle velocities and bc to be well in the supersonic zone at 1000yd.

 

[Ned Ludd]

So are you saying sling shooters should shoot on F class targets so we are all shooting the same game ?

The target center used has little to do with shooting cadence during a match. Whether it's Conventional shooters or F-Class shooters, the major limiting factor [historically] to the rate at which they could fire in a match has been the speed at which the targets were pulled. This has typically been in the 7 to 10 second range, depending on how good the puller is. No matter what people might claim, it's rarely ever faster than that on average.

The advent of E-targets has opened up a can of worms in that it allows shooting at much faster cadences, which has the potential to markedly change the way the game is played. The addition of a 7-second delay was done solely to address that concern, which is the same regardless of whether it's High Power or F-Class. It had nothing whatsoever to do with making Conventional shooters and F-Class shooters play the same game and shoot on the same target centers. The target centers used by the two disciplines are different, exactly as they should be.

IMO, E-target technology is supposed to facilitate and simplify the game, not change the way the game is played. This also appears to be the thinking of the Rules Committee at the NRA, which is why they implemented the 7-second delay. However, the effect of E-targets on shooting cadence is identical for Conventional shooters and F-Class shooters, as are the concerns about their effect in match strategy. For that reason, the delay should be in effect for all E-targets within High Power as an entity, not just for F-Class. I cannot even comprehend why someone would come up with a 7-second delay that is only for F-Class and not other High Power matches, as I indicated earlier in this thread. However, stranger things have happened, so I guess we'll just have to wait for an official answer to the question.

 

[Steve Blair]

I shoot conventional prone (sling) and when conditions are favorable I shoot the shot within one second of when the target comes up for paper, pulled targets. The guys in the pits tell me that I shoot the target before it is fully up but that is an exaggeration. If I am keeping the shots in the 10 and X ring and have good pit service I shoot faster than the 7 seconds delay specified for etargets. So why am I now penalized by a 7 second delay with etargets?

The seven second delay is from the moment the shot strikes the target. I doubt you are receiving pit service and reacting to the target within seven seconds. So, no penalty.

 

[chkunz]

The seven second delay is from the moment the shot strikes the target. I doubt you are receiving pit service and reacting to the target within seven seconds. So, no penalty.

Steve, you have not seen me shoot when Fatboy is pulling my target. With the AR I like to keep the rifle in my shoulder for the whole string (this is a big advantage for me over the M14). As soon as I break the shot I reload and release the bolt with an extended bolt release with little effect on my position, I check the wind and as soon as the target comes up I notice the spotter relative to my call and what is going on with the wind, hold off if needed and shoot the first ten I see. When I keep them in the X and 10 ring, Fatboy is really fast. The guys in the pits really like to pull for a fast shooter that keeps them in the middle so they get into the spirit of the game. With the seven second delay on the etarget I have to hesitate and double check to be sure the new shot is being displayed (sometimes the etarget seems to go to sleep or hesitate). This slows me down and breaks my rhythm. The 7 second delay is not a big thing and there are some things I can do to minimize the distraction. Overall the etarget benefits far outweigh having to do pit duty or get a poor pit puller. I would like to let etargets be all they can be without any of the nostalgic carryover. The game has been in a state of change since I got into highpower in the 1970 and from reading the history it has been in a state of change since they dug the river. All is well, best wishes, Clyde

 

[Steve Blair]

I've shot a few matches at Camp Pendleton with an M1a. I still think seven seconds is not an impediment. What happens when pit service is not perfect? Since I usually shoot only at 1000 yards, I make a wind call every shot and use the spotting scope to assess conditions. Seven seconds is never crowded.

 

[Ned Ludd]

In my years shooting F-Class, I've come across the [fairly rare] target puller that was unbelievably fast. Matt Scwartzkopf comes to mind in this regard. Matt's target is usually on its way back up before it even comes all the way down. However, this is not even close to the norm. I would say that even 10 seconds is probably not the norm when you factor in waiting for the scorer to call out the score once the target has come back up, re-adjusting the POA, etc. So in reality, a 7 second delay is probably even several seconds faster than the average target service allows.

In order to implement such a ruling without markedly changing the firing cadence from that experienced with human target pullers, the committee had to come up with what they perceived to be an "average" delay that was representative of typical pit service. In other words, they didn't choose a delay representing the very fastest target service you might expect to receive from an exceptional puller. Like it or not, 7 seconds is not at all an unreasonable delay to approximate the time achieved by a human puller.

 

[FatBoy]

So are you saying sling shooters should shoot on F class targets so we are all shooting the same game ?

I've shot them from a sling and coat a few times. The score is lower but the group is the same. I don't like the further separation of rules beyond the rifle rules. It's all highpower. If 7 seconds are going to be required for F Open and/or F TR than it should be required for everyone.

Targets would just make the MDs life easier. You can always convert the displayed target to a LR.

 

[Mittry]

How fast are you allowed to shoot at a walk and paste high power match?

Marc Mittry

 

[chkunz]

How fast are you allowed to shoot at a walk and paste high power match?

Marc Mittry

You are allowed to be all that you can be.

 

[Jetjock1]

The updated (but not yet finalized) rules to which you provided a link above are High Power Rules. F-Class is a subdivision of High Power. If the new e-target rules were specific to F-Class, they would have been in the F-Class section. However, they're not - they're in the general High Power rules (i.e. 4.1, 9.25, etc.). I think you can be pretty certain the rules apply to everything under the High Power umbrella, including F-Class.

FWIW: F-TR and F-Open are the two distinct classes within F-Class as a whole.

Ned
If F-class rules differ from regular HP rules it is placed in Section 22, however any rules not defined in 22 will revert to the hp book. Thus section 11 spells out the etarget rules where the 7 sec rules applies to f-class only. Match directors can howvever use the7sec rule for all shooter if they so desire.
Jetjock

 

[davek]

Ned
If F-class rules differ from regular HP rules it is placed in Section 22, however any rules not defined in 22 will revert to the hp book. Thus section 11 spells out the etarget rules where the 7 sec rules applies to f-class only. Match directors can howvever use the7sec rule for all shooter if they so desire.
Jetjock

I shot on the electronic targets at perry for the last 2 years, the 7 second delay is not need and could cause problems with crossfires. davek

 

[sdean]

One of the fastest shooters on Etarget just won at Raton. Best shooters win one way or the other. Ain’t got much to do with delays or what kind of target. Good and bad each way.