• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

ANNEALING

How do we determine whether this practice is worth the time and effort in some empirical fashion? Otherwise, this is just an esoteric discussion on the vagaries of metallurgy

I suspect you do it via the older scientific method: Change something and see what happens.

In truth, you don't need to know exactly why a process works (or doesn't); you just need to choose those practices that yield positive results towards what you're trying to accomplish.

As to the "worth the time and effort" thing won't yield an answer as it will be different for every individual.
 
I’m annealing after firing using an Annealeez and 750 deg tempilaq because I read somewhere that annealing can have a positive affect on consistent neck tension and down range results. Having no way to know what’s going on at the molecular level I take much of this based on faith.

How do we determine whether this practice is worth the time and effort in some empirical fashion? Otherwise, this is just an esoteric discussion on the vagaries of metallurgy

There's some great information in the articles on the AMP website that provides a lot of evidence for issues on annealing:
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/

There were a lot of highlights I made that interested me and maybe you and other's here (a bit many, and my just highlights, taken from their reports at the above link):

as the carbon layer increased (microscopically), the force to draw the bullet decreased. It would appear the carbon acted as a lubricant. Interestingly, the standard deviation also improved i.e. the case to case variation in the force required to draw the bullets decreased”


4 hours of SS tumbling hardens the surface of the case wall by 15 – 25 HV. When the same case is sectioned however, the cross section of the case wall can be tested (see photo above right). This showed that no work hardening occurs deeper into the cross section. The tumbling effectively creates a harder "skin” on the surface which is undetectable even under 200X magnification or higher



neck and shoulder regions of cases must be "flash annealed” so that the heating is localised. This requires a higher temperature over a shorter time



The greater the hardness, the greater the force needed to draw the bullet for a given interference fit. The packs highlighted in yellow were sized with a fairly aggressive neck die with expander ball. That hardens the neck considerably more than the bushing die without expander, and greatly increases the force needed to draw the bullet.



carbon was removed from inside the necks. This made a dramatic improvement to the batch to batch consistency


as carbon built up inside the necks, the average tensile force progressively decreased from 103 lbf for once shot cases (Pack 3) down to 74 lbf for three times shot (Pack 4), and just 43.5 lbf for ten times shot cases (Pack 5)


appears that graphite does not coat freshly annealed brass as thoroughly as either unannealed brass, or brass that has been annealed and set aside for a day or two. We did experience some galling where dry (graphite) lube was used, in particular with pack 1.


Not surprisingly, the results clearly show better results using a bushing die (packs 3, 4 and 5) compared to a standard neck die with expander ball


The bushing die used in this set of tensile bullet pull tests gave significantly more consistent results than the standard neck die with expander ball. Cases should be annealed every reload in order to get the best repeatability.



The effect of case weight variations on annealing is more significant in some brands than

others. If weight variations are only located in the case heads, then annealing is unaffected. If a portion of the variation is in the neck and shoulder, then annealing results will vary. Premium brands such as Lapua, Peterson and Norma tend to have small spreads of weight across any given lot. What weight variations do exist tend to be located in the case head, where it doesn’t affect annealing. In other brands tested in this study there is a direct correlation between case weight and annealing results, indicating that at least part of the weight variation in those brands is in the neck and shoulder region.


It is only after cases have been sized at least once that consistent annealed neck hardness will be achieved reload to reload. This is due to the level of "stored energy” which sizing creates. Therefore, reloaders should either: directly load virgin cases and not anneal until the second reloading cycle, or simply run virgin cases through a neck die with expander before starting the first load. This will pre-harden the cases sufficiently to ensure the first and every subsequent anneal gives repeatable results


Note that both cases had been lightly neck turned to remove high spots. After turning, both still showed neck wall variations from 0.013” to 0.014”.


as with Lapua, showed no correlation to case weight. Comparing these results to "B and "C” tests, firstly, the case weight variations are much lower in Norma and Lapua. Secondly, what variation there is does not appear to be in the neck and shoulder region. It is therefore more likely to be in the head of the cases.



The Peterson cases showed no correlation between weight variability and either AZTEC code generation or annealed hardness, and therefore, as with Norma and Lapua, we conclude that there is no significant weight variation in the targetted neck and shoulder region. They showed excellent consistency.


Does variable case weight result in variable annealing hardness? - That depends on the

cases. With all three brands "A”, "B” and "C”, we saw a considerable increase in annealedhardness as case weight increased. The Lapua, Peterson and Norma cases showed no such trend.



Neck wall thicknesses should be checked before even starting to weigh cases. Each 0.001” will make a significant difference, as can be seen in our Standard program listings
 
neck and shoulder regions of cases must be "flash annealed” so that the heating is localised. This requires a higher temperature over a shorter time

I wish they would stop using that term. Flash annealing is an entirely different process used in manufacturing semiconductors among other things, it has no relation to what we're doing.
 
We can measure spring back by fullsizing without expander, seat a bullit and measure the diameter of the neck, pull the bullit and measuring again. Anneal and measure spring back again.
 
It's hard to do. Most annealing data out there is for very large samples heated for very long times (compared to shooting flame over a case neck for a few seconds). The temperatures we require are significantly higher, but the heat transfer happens much faster - the ratio of surface area to thermal mass is much higher. In either case, it's hard to measure. The only pragmatic way is hardness testing like that done by AMP. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the appropriate annealed state of a piece of brass should be, which seems like a prerequisite for figuring out *how* to anneal. We've collectively skipped that step.

It’s real simple. You can heat case necks for somewhere between 5-10 seconds with a torch or about 3.5 seconds with an induction annealer. You have no other choices. You don’t have to know anything about what’s happening or metallurgy
 
It’s real simple. You can heat case necks for somewhere between 5-10 seconds with a torch or about 3.5 seconds with an induction annealer. You have no other choices. You don’t have to know anything about what’s happening or metallurgy
I was talking about the metallurgy not the mechanics of actually annealing something. A monkey can do that part.
 
I think one of the most interesting conclusions from AMP's work is that cleaning brass, removing powder residue from the inside of case necks, led to considerably more uniform neck tension from one firing to the next (rather than a steady loss of neck tension from one firing to the next). I had been told that most benchrest shooters didn't bother to clean their brass because a build up of carbon on the inside of case necks led to better accuracy. If that's indeed the case, one has to conclude that less neck tension results in better accuracy and that increased firing improves results.
 
I was talking about the metallurgy not the mechanics of actually annealing something. A monkey can do that part.

You don't need to be a metallugist to heat up a case neck. Don't you understand you have no choices in how to do it. Next you will be saying you have to be a metallurgist to solder, weld or braze. Epoxy hardens even if you are not a chemist.
 
I built an induction annealer. It’s really cool. Auto feeder, auto case detection, internal temp monitoring and protection etc. But you’re still left wondering what time and what power achieved the desired goal.
 
I built an induction annealer. It’s really cool. Auto feeder, auto case detection, internal temp monitoring and protection etc. But you’re still left wondering what time and what power achieved the desired goal.

Find what time it takes for the case to start turning red in a dark room and cut back 10%.
 
You don't need to be a metallugist to heat up a case neck. Don't you understand you have no choices in how to do it. Next you will be saying you have to be a metallurgist to solder, weld or braze. Epoxy hardens even if you are not a chemist.
I think we all know how to hold a torch. That’s not the point of this discussion. Figuring out the optimal metallurgical state of the case, and how to get it there consistently, is the point.
 
I think we all know how to hold a torch. That’s not the point of this discussion. Figuring out the optimal metallurgical state of the case, and how to get it there consistently, is the point.

Your assuming there is some magical condition of the brass that will improve the accuracy of the rifle.
 
So last year everything was annealed. This year one set of cases was annealed once, and another set of cases not annealed at all. There has been no significant difference in seating consistency or group size for these three scenarios.
How many times did you reload these cases in your different scenarios?
 
I think 5 times. Going forward, I’ll prep 200 cases and not anneal them. After 5 firings the barrel will be about done anyway (LR BR) so I’ll start over with a new barrel and brass.

If I really wanted to answer the question on annealing I’d take 10 cases and anneal then every time and then take 10 cases and not anneal them. I’d shoot each batch 10 times and record seating pressure, velocity group size. Ideally I’d hardness test as well.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,561
Messages
2,198,302
Members
78,961
Latest member
Nicklm
Back
Top