A 204 Dilemma

[2dogs]

Wow, before we have guys getting into their pads and heading for the mat let me remind everybody I am shooting a .223 Ackley Improved not a standard .223 and I am trying to figure out why my new .204 Ruger Remington 700 is not giving me anywhere near the velocity I was expecting. I am not shooting targets at 1000 yards however if a prairie dog was out there believe me he would be getting shot at.

Lots of good information here. Lots of things I didn't know and wouldn't have thought to check without your help. The last thing I want to do is turn a simple thread into a spitting contest.

I have some new component bullets coming. I am going to move my chrono farther away from the muzzle. Maybe I just got a slow batch of factory ammo. I just didn't want to yank a otherwise good shooting barrel off a rifle before I was sure I did every thing I could to salvage it first. I even have a muzzle brake in my parts box that is looking for a job.

I am set up so I can load at the range so testing isn't a problem however let me ask one more question if you guys would humor me just a bit. Has anyone had to send their Remington 700 bolt to Gre-Tan to have the firing pin hole bushed for the 204 Ruger chambering?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Has anyone had to send their Remington 700 bolt to Gre-Tan to have the firing pin hole bushed for the 204 Ruger chambering?

No but I need to. My Rem 700 firing pin on my 204R is really bad for cratering primers. I've talked with Greg on other work. Cant go wrong with his work or prices.

 

[2dogs]

No but I need to. My Rem 700 firing pin on my 204R is really bad for cratering primers. I've talked with Greg on other work. Cant go wrong with his work or prices.

I sent him the bolt out of my 1/14 6mm BR and had him bush the firing pin. It made a huge difference. I was able to get the 55 grain NBT running 3950 fps. Since I am going to be putting a bit of pressure on this little 204 (If I can get it to show some signs of life) I think I'll send him this bolt as well.

 

[varget204]

I had 2 Savage factory 204, and 1 Criterion,and I Krieger barrel guns,Both Savages and the Krieger,Used a RCBS precision MIC to check seated bullets,40 v-max at .060 on the mic,the Criterion has a Match chamber,a lot shorter freebore than the other 3,i seat them at .078,With 39 B. Kings The 3 .065 on mic, .060 on mic is roughly 2.060 Oal,Have talked to other 204 shooters a lot of rifles like a .050 to .080 jump,the shorter freebore about half that .Recommend using Bergers Method for finding Base to Ogive ,it works for almost any caliber,with least amount of ammo.I'd put a snug patch on 204 barrel,use cleaning rod with apiece of tape on it w/mark at 12 o clock,put apiece of masking tape on stock,push rod 1 complete turn,and measure twist rate of your rifle,some 1-12"twist won't shoot 40 grain bullets,most will shoot the 39 B King.Just about all 1-11"will shoot them

 

[Tommie]

An astute observation Sir. Care to venture an opinion as to what or several what's might be wrong? Maybe I need to pull the trigger harder???

I recommend tap dancing while farting The Star Spangled Banner. Let us know how it goes. Sir.

 

[searcher]

Put a brake on that sucker!!! Your recoil situation isn't due to the caliber sol much as your rifle. After all - if your other rifle (223AI) uses more powder and shoots just as heavy a bullet (40 grain)- the laws of physics say it has to do with the weight difference in your rig, barrel twist, etc. Get some good loads worked up and you will truly appreciate the difference, I think, between the .223AI, though the difference is not going to be huge. I'm looking around to gather data on a .20/.22 Nosler. I have a spare .20 Lilja barrel that I was going to put on my Rem. 700 when the current barrel is toast (shortly), It was originally to be another .20 practical, though now I want a heavier barrel than the "Remington Varmint contour" I have. If I could run the 39's at maybe 7% to 10% faster than in my .20 Practical and with less pressure - I'd think that would be incredible.

 

[2dogs]

That is what it will say on paper, but not necessarily what it will measure. I had 2 Rem in 204R. 12T on paper, the older one is 13.25T and the newer one is 9.5T. Once I learned what the newer one twist was, I changed to the 39/40 gr bullets and accuracy improved dramatically.

Just out of curiosity, what bullet weight could the 9.5” twist rifle manage? Would you be able to step up to a 55 grain 20 cal projectile?

 

[jepp2]

what bullet weight could the 9.5” twist rifle manage?

I haven't tried it. But after I found this out and switched from 32 gr. to 39 gr (along with seating the bullet closer to the lands) my accuracy improved dramatically. I would have never guessed the twist could vary that much from what the manufacturer claims.

 

[L.Sherm]

Just out of curiosity, what bullet weight could the 9.5” twist rifle manage? Would you be able to step up to a 55 grain 20 cal projectile?

I know some guys who have shot 55's out of a 10tw running around that 3800fps and some altitude who said they did fine. I shoot a 9tw with 55's, works great at 3750

 

[B23]

Per Berger, the 55's may very well stabilize and shoot fine from slower than 8tw barrels, but unless you are shooting them above 6000ft elevation, you will not got the full advertised BC of these bullets if you are using slower twist barrels.

 

[2dogs]

Let's see, the 204 Ruger was introduced in 2004-5? I purchased mine in 2014 and it is a Remington 700. Just in this thread alone there are several guys who state the rifling twist is not always 1/12" from the factory. I decided I better check mine. My first patch went thru and was a bit shy of 1/12" and I kind of felt the patch skid a couple times so I decided I better clean the thing and try a bit tighter fitting patch. So I made sure the barrel was nice and clean and lightly lubed and trimmed a 6mm patch so that it was a tight fit but passed through the bore smoothly. I got 1/10.5" three times.....

I am having a muzzle brake installed and I guess we will see what we see....

 

[2dogs]

My dilemma has been that I currently run a 23" sporter barrelled 1:12" and had a 27 1/2" Light Palma TrueFlight 1:8" chambered to 223AI, and neither by chronograph or QL simulation was 4000fps ever possible with a 40gr unless you were running excessive pressures. The long barrel would come within 50fps of it was about the best I ever got. The lead free 35gr Nosler BT would hit that speed however.
Cheers...

Sir, I apologize, I meant to reply earlier but got wound up around the Easter weekend and a daughter fixing to deliver any minute now. You are absolutely correct. I am running Data 2200 powder. I worked up my loads in the heat of the S. Texas summer for my two 1/14” rifles individually with all due caution. I am satisfied my loads are safe in my rifles.

 

[moorepower]

I would be curious what psi 3750 with a 53 vmax in a .223 AI is. I get 3800 in a 26" .204 with 8208. If I recall Hornady lists 3850 max load. If I loaded to the psi it take to get 4200 from a .223 AI I am guessing I would be north of 4000fps.

 

[varget204]

Let's see, the 204 Ruger was introduced in 2004-5? I purchased mine in 2014 and it is a Remington 700. Just in this thread alone there are several guys who state the rifling twist is not always 1/12" from the factory. I decided I better check mine. My first patch went thru and was a bit shy of 1/12" and I kind of felt the patch skid a couple times so I decided I better clean the thing and try a bit tighter fitting patch. So I made sure the barrel was nice and clean and lightly lubed and trimmed a 6mm patch so that it was a tight fit but passed through the bore smoothly. I got 1/10.5" three times.....

I am having a muzzle brake installed and I guess we will see what we see....

That should shoot every thing up to 45-46 grains.

 

[2dogs]

Ok, first, thanks to all for the help (except the star spangled banner thing, I couldn't quite get that step) as this has been an eye opening experience. I'm not real sure why I might have bought into the zero recoil thing in the first place but in retrospect feel kind of silly about it. So, my rifle set up is a Remington Varmint 26" 700 with a Timney Calvin Elite trigger, a B&C butt hook stock with a aluminum bedding block, CDI bottom metal that support a 10 shot polymer AI magazine (which allows loading longer than standard), and I added a side discharge shrewd muzzle brake. My optic is a NF 5.5x22 with the NP-2DD reticle.

The idea that the 204R might be some difficult to chronograph does seem to have some merit. I'm left wondering if the cause is the blast from the generous freebore or perhaps it is the nature of the tiny projectile itself. I don't know. With the muzzle brake on the rifle and with the Chrono out about 5 more feet and using the last 4 rounds out of the original box of Hornady Superperformance 32 grain ammunition I recorded:
1) 4203 fps
2) 4188 fps
3) 4155 fps
4) 4180 fps

So in fact the factory ammo was tripping right along at the advertised speed and not the 3800 fps I originally recorded. More, the addition of the muzzle brake did not negatively impact the accuracy potential as all 4 shots went into a very tiny hole.

I sized my once fired cases with a RCBS full length sizer after disassembling my bolt and using my chamber to check the fit. I was able to find the right height shell holder to full length size the case without bumping the die. I used a Wilson chamber seater and started with the 39 grain Sierra but even though I loaded a bit long I didn't touch the throat. I started with RL15 powder and a ladder test from 29.2 grains to 30 grains. I was able to fit 30 grains into the Hornady cases because I had more room for powder in the neck.

I fired 10 shots a 50 yards and was simply trying to get on paper, get a baseline on velocity and pressure, and not shoot my chronograph in the ever present gusty S. Texas winds. I did not use a hard cup primer because I did not want to mask pressure signs. Velocity climbed in a consistent and linear fashion as did pressure. This thing is fast. My first shot at my starting charge of 28.2 grains or RL15 with the 39 grain Sierra was 3756 fps which is where lots of guys seem to be comfortable with this bullet. I was not surprised the primer showed a bit of cratering. This bolt will be going to Gre-Tan to be bushed and I am going to be using a hard cup primer from here on out. Here is what I saw. This is in my rifle, my chrono, my stuff, my responsibility. The standard primers showed pressure throughout this process (increasing cratering) and I will continue testing as the weather warms up down here very very carefully. Use all due caution if you try to duplicate the following.
28.2 3756 fps
28.4 3855 fps
28.6 3876 fps
28.8 3925 fps
29.0 3968 fps
29.2 4032 fps
29.4 4052 fps (this was probably max but I was intrigued)
29.6 4041 fps
29.8 4164 fps
30.0 4106 fps

It is important with RL15 to note that the temperature was only 88 degrees. I am going to bush the bolt face, glass bed this rifle, and take a look at some other powders and bullets but holy smokes even if I drop all the way down to 3850 fps with the 39 grain Sierra this little 20 caliber will be one mean jelly bean. For the record, on the 20 calibers, I stand corrected.

 

[sundance]

2 DOGS-When I got my first 204 I was getting 4250fps with the 32 Vmax with handloads and it shot great. Killed a bunch of dogs with it. After 3 loadings on the Hornady cases I was throwing the brass away due to enlarged primer pockets. I dropped down to 4100 fps and now have 8 loadings on the cases and pockets are still good. I didn't think 150 fps would make that big a difference in brass life but it did on that batch from Hornady.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Ok, first, thanks to all for the help (except the star spangled banner thing, I couldn't quite get that step) as this has been an eye opening experience. I'm not real sure why I might have bought into the zero recoil thing in the first place but in retrospect feel kind of silly about it. So, my rifle set up is a Remington Varmint 26" 700 with a Timney Calvin Elite trigger, a B&C butt hook stock with a aluminum bedding block, CDI bottom metal that support a 10 shot polymer AI magazine (which allows loading longer than standard), and I added a side discharge shrewd muzzle brake. My optic is a NF 5.5x22 with the NP-2DD reticle.

The idea that the 204R might be some difficult to chronograph does seem to have some merit. I'm left wondering if the cause is the blast from the generous freebore or perhaps it is the nature of the tiny projectile itself. I don't know. With the muzzle brake on the rifle and with the Chrono out about 5 more feet and using the last 4 rounds out of the original box of Hornady Superperformance 32 grain ammunition I recorded:
1) 4203 fps
2) 4188 fps
3) 4155 fps
4) 4180 fps

So in fact the factory ammo was tripping right along at the advertised speed and not the 3800 fps I originally recorded. More, the addition of the muzzle brake did not negatively impact the accuracy potential as all 4 shots went into a very tiny hole.

I sized my once fired cases with a RCBS full length sizer after disassembling my bolt and using my chamber to check the fit. I was able to find the right height shell holder to full length size the case without bumping the die. I used a Wilson chamber seater and started with the 39 grain Sierra but even though I loaded a bit long I didn't touch the throat. I started with RL15 powder and a ladder test from 29.2 grains to 30 grains. I was able to fit 30 grains into the Hornady cases because I had more room for powder in the neck.

I fired 10 shots a 50 yards and was simply trying to get on paper, get a baseline on velocity and pressure, and not shoot my chronograph in the ever present gusty S. Texas winds. I did not use a hard cup primer because I did not want to mask pressure signs. Velocity climbed in a consistent and linear fashion as did pressure. This thing is fast. My first shot at my starting charge of 28.2 grains or RL15 with the 39 grain Sierra was 3756 fps which is where lots of guys seem to be comfortable with this bullet. I was not surprised the primer showed a bit of cratering. This bolt will be going to Gre-Tan to be bushed and I am going to be using a hard cup primer from here on out. Here is what I saw. This is in my rifle, my chrono, my stuff, my responsibility. The standard primers showed pressure throughout this process (increasing cratering) and I will continue testing as the weather warms up down here very very carefully. Use all due caution if you try to duplicate the following.
28.2 3756 fps
28.4 3855 fps
28.6 3876 fps
28.8 3925 fps
29.0 3968 fps
29.2 4032 fps
29.4 4052 fps (this was probably max but I was intrigued)
29.6 4041 fps
29.8 4164 fps
30.0 4106 fps

It is important with RL15 to note that the temperature was only 88 degrees. I am going to bush the bolt face, glass bed this rifle, and take a look at some other powders and bullets but holy smokes even if I drop all the way down to 3850 fps with the 39 grain Sierra this little 20 caliber will be one mean jelly bean. For the record, on the 20 calibers, I stand corrected.

Nice. RL-15 and BLC-2 is definitely the powder for speed using the Sierra 39gr BK. Provided your chronograph is correct (or if MY chronograph is correct), your barrel is over 120 fps faster than my 26" Rem Varmint barrel with ths same charges of RL-15.

Nice work

 

[2dogs]

2 DOGS-When I got my first 204 I was getting 4250fps with the 32 Vmax with handloads and it shot great. Killed a bunch of dogs with it. After 3 loadings on the Hornady cases I was throwing the brass away due to enlarged primer pockets. I dropped down to 4100 fps and now have 8 loadings on the cases and pockets are still good. I didn't think 150 fps would make that big a difference in brass life but it did on that batch from Hornady.

Noted. Thanks. I've destroyed prairie dogs fireforming 223's into 223 AI's at 3850 fps. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be somewhere between there and 3950 with the 204R but I am going to let the target tell me. Plus, the real summer heat hasn't arrived yet so temp sensitive powders have to be carefully approached. We will see how it shakes out. What would you call a good speed for the 39/40s? What powder did you use for your 32's?

 

[2dogs]

Nice. RL-15 and BLC-2 is definitely the powder for speed using the Sierra 39gr BK. Provided your chronograph is correct, your barrel is over 120 fps faster than my 26" Rem Varmint barrel with ths same charges if RL-15.

Nice work

I really appreciate your taking time to PM me. Looking forward to a visit when you are off. Like I said, I need to make some modifications to the rifle, need to wait on summer to get closer, and since I have your ear let me ask one more question. I have 8 lbs of the canister BLC-2 equivalent (well sort of anyway) think when you get a chance to check your notes you or one of the other guys might point out a starting charge with the 32's? The jug is marked WC-846.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I really appreciate your taking time to PM me. Looking forward to a visit when you are off. Like I said, I need to make some modifications to the rifle, need to wait on summer to get closer, and since I have your ear let me ask one more question. I have 8 lbs of the canister BLC-2 equivalent (well sort of anyway) think when you get a chance to check your notes you or one of the other guys might point out a starting charge with the 32's? The jug is marked WC-846.

You are welcome.
I messed with the 32s a little bit in the beginning, but not with BLC-2. My rifle didnt like the 32s nearly as much as the 39gr BK.

In my rifle, there seemed to be a very forgiving accuracy node between 3930 fps and 4030 fps. Would shoot both RL-15 and BLC-2 with good accuracy using the various charges which delivered that speed range.

Be very careful about getting "intrigued" with the speeds because that's exactly what I was doing when I had a major incident. I did hit 4100 fps with RL-15 while pushing the round to see what it would do in a 26" barrel. Everything looked great on the first 3 shots, accuracy hovering around 1/2" at 200 yards, then the 4th round went KABOOM!!! Blew up so bad the bolt was locked up and it actually even blew my BDL floor plate open! Had to beat the bolt open with a mallet and found my bolt face was blown apart where the factory extractor recess was. Then looked up and realized my chronograph was dead. When I got up and looked at my chrono, I realized the root cause of the entire catastrophe. The 39gr BK bullet came apart in my barrel. The shrapnel came out the muzzle like a shotgun and destroyed my chrono. I had to have the bolt face drilled out and bushed with a steel ring then install a Sako extractor. Needless to say, I never tried the load again. Although it's a small case, it can be extremely devastating when something goes wrong.

I need to get my firing pin bushed too because I get really bad cratered primers as well. I'm using Fed 205s.