RWS brass - bin it or use it?

[SGK]

Howdy

I have several hundred 308 Win RWS cases. These were originally hunting ammunition (RWS DK 165 grain) used on deer in the UK over the last 5-6 years. (Yes, I shot a lot of deer when I lived there.) Some were reloaded by HPS as target ammunition and are now 2F/3F. What is the general reputation of such cases? I'm wondering whether to:

(a) bin the cases and stick to PPU (about 200 cases) or my newly purchased Lapua (only 100 at this stage);
(b) use the cases for both target and game; or
(c) only use them for game (although I suspect now that I live in Miami I will be shooting considerably less deer!)

If they aren't really that good I'm happy with option one but if they have a good reputation then the other options may be sensible. (I can anneal the cases etc.)

Regards

Steve

 

[DaveTooley]

I like RWS brass. It's the toughest stuff I've ever used.

 

[JRS]

I like RWS brass. It's the toughest stuff I've ever used.

I wish they made it in 250 Savage.

 

[Ares]

RWS brass is generally very good. Consistency is great and they tend to have fairly thick and tough cases. Higher quality then your PPU brass, but likely to have less volume.
I'd keep them and use them. If you want separate brass for separate uses use Lapua for one and RWS for the other.
If your going to bin anything it would be the PPU brass.

 

[Catfur]

Lots of people consider RWS brass to be the finest available (at least in the calibers it comes in). It sells for premium $$ in the calibers you can get it in.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I wish they made it in 250 Savage.

Maybe tomorrow youll see if they do

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The ppu is what needs to be questioned. RWS is the best of the best

 

[MagnumManiac]

I found it lasts into the teens if minimally sized, the only drawback is that it gets VERY hard and resists forming, but it is brilliant brass.
We don’t get a lot of it here, and what we do get is very expensive, moreso than Lapua or any other brand.

Cheers

 

[SGK]

Ok sounds like I should keep it and toss the PPU! Thanks guys. I guess having split sets of brass (RWS and Lapua) isn't ideal unless I dedicate one to game and the other to target (or at least a separate bullet to each). Hmmm. The other problem is that I have prepped and primed a 100 of the PPU. Ugh.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Use em. No worries

 

[Laurie]

We have lots of fired RWS 308 floating around in the UK as our NRA did a deal with RWS' parent company RUAG to supply match grade ammo for the 'Imperial' and other top fixtures as well as for general sales from its premises on Bisley Camp a few years ago. The contract lasted for three years and you could hardly give the once-fired stuff away for a while.

Dimensionally, (neck thickness, capacity etc) it's very close to large primer Lapua and I'd say as good quality. I wouldn't say it's any better or stronger - stout loads will see case-heads / primer pockets expand in the same number of firings. (Which is why those who load 'hot' including all serious F-TR competitors use Lapua 'Palma' small primer 308 here.)

I can't comment on PPU 308 Win, but on the basis of a few other cartridges, RWS is in a completely different (premier) league from the Serbian stuff. (eg 100 new 243 Win cases with a 7gn weight range and 7X57mm that won't fit Auto-Prime shellholders because of the extractor groove being too small!) Nothing wrong with PPU ammo / brass and it is popular and effective among our 'deerstalkers' here - although 243 has reputation for hard chambering / non-chambering in some minimum headspace rifles, especially Tikkas) - but RWS/Lapua quality standard it is not.

 

[SGK]

You will likely be familiar with HPS Target Rifles Ltd. They supplied me the ammo which was the source of the PPU cases (and reloaded my RWS). I had (erroneously) been thinking that the PPU would be better as it was supplied by a provider of match ammunition. Hence I focused on these cases as I started my reloading journey. Sounds like I should switch to at least making use of the RWS brass. I bought the Lapua with a view that once I had processes etc down pat I would switch to that. I bought the standard large primer pocket brass but perhaps should migrate to Palma at some point in the future.

 

[Fotheringill]

Only had them in .223 as cases used by Black Hills unfired. They lasted and lasted and lasted well past 25 firings and this was before I had an annealer.

 

[SGK]

Cool. I built my annealer:



(Tap pic to enlarge.)

 

[Laurie]

You will likely be familiar with HPS Target Rifles Ltd.

They're a very good outfit indeed and produce fine stuff. They do have to produce ammunition to a budget though and PPU brass is a lot cheaper here than Norma, Lapua, RWS (or Winchester and Remington too these days). I presume HPS' use of RWS is once-fired as like I say, there are or were huge amounts floating around here for a while. In fact, RWS as a new unprimed brass purchase is so expensive in the UK that hardly anybody buys it in 308 Win with the much cheaper Lapua alternative available virtually everywhere. Lots of people here choose PPU very much on price and with a decent bullet seated in it, it'll perform as well as 90% plus of people ever need, but it'll never be used in top-flight F-Class, benchrest or similar.

The small primer / small flash-hole Lapua 308 cases are excellent and much stronger than the standard variety so take a lot more abuse. (The same applies to Peterson I believe.) Don't use them though if shooting in low temperatures. Depending on the powder grade and charge weight they can see lower MVs, larger ES figures and group sizes once temperatures get down to freezing or just above. They also don't work well with a few hard to ignite ball types - Hodgdon CFE223 was a disaster when I tried it in this brass.

 

[SGK]

I presume HPS' use of RWS is once-fired as like I say, there are or were huge amounts floating around here for a while.

No, I gave them my once-fired cases from RWS DK hunting ammo. (I have some odd lots as some was lost in the field. I was not about to rummage through a pile of nettles underneath a high seat to retrieve a piece of brass that was ejected at speed. )

 

[SGK]

I just ran 40 RWS cases through my 21st Century Neck Turning Lathe. Interestingly, the thickness of the neck brass was a lot less than the PPU and Lapua. I had previously, conservatively, targeted a neck wall thickness of 14.5 thou to leave a little 'low-side' (untrimmed) brass visible. I had to increase the cutting depth to target 13.5 thou to achieve a similar result with the RWS. That still left plenty of untrimmed brass. I'm going to need a new neck resizing bushing.

What is a sensible and safe minimum thickness? Is 13.5 thou still plenty safe - should I shave a little more for better uniformity?

 

[snoopy001]

Be sure,RWS is a garantee for quality! I use RWS .308 brass for 22-250 and the 6XC , .270 Win for .25-06 Rem and also 6x62 Frères with best result.I dropped all of Hornady,Winchester,Norma and Federal brass ,the are rubish compared by RWS.

 

[Laurie]

What is a sensible and safe minimum thickness? Is 13.5 thou still plenty safe - should I shave a little more for better uniformity?

Don't worry about safety if only necks are thin. It's the case-head, web and lower walls that keep the 60,000 psi pressure contained. The worst that happens with a too thin / over-hard neck is longitudinal splitting that will give you a flier and is therefore undesirable, but doesn't affect safety. (Cutting too deep into the shoulder in neck turning especially on very thin wall brass can see the entire neck detach from the shoulder and disappear down the barrel still wrapped around the bullet. Even this seems to pose little or no safety risk, but can ruin a good match barrel.)

There's nothing to stop you running them at 0.0135" or even less with bushing die sizing. I still occasionally use the last of some 600 super-thin 1980s '160' Norma cases I picked up many years ago. The name comes from their weighing ~160gn, 20-25gn lighter than usual and having very thin necks and walls. These mostly started out at 0.0130-0.0135", but some are under 0.0130" and some even have thin sides of 0.0125" or a little less and rather larger wall discrepancies than we'd expect from quality brass today. After mild clean-up turning, I have maybe 40 or 50 that measure as little as 0.0120". In theory, the extra clearance in a minimum SAAMI chamber whose neck will be at 0.344" (around 10-12 thou' total clearance depending on what they end up as) will see poorer precision and shorter life due to additional brass working, even with bushing dies. In practice, they perform very well indeed and with annealing every few firings, it's still case-head / primer pocket expansion that has put them in the scrap bin.

(They came as factory loaded with 150gn PSPs for deer and were sold cheaply as out of spec with the brass 'no good for reloading'. In a typical factory sporting rifle chamber of the 80s/90s and resized with standard FL dies, the necks allegedly split after a couple of firings, three at most.)

Don't go mad on the turning though. You won't gain much if anything by going down and down to get everything to 0.0001" consistency, unless you're that rare person who shoots 308 in short-range BR. From what you say, your cases have a at least thou' thinner walls than the GB NRA ammunition contract examples I have.

 

[SGK]

If I had to guess I'd say that turning to a target of 13.5 thou has trimmed something like 2/3rds overall - more on some and less on others. I'd say targeting 13 thou would increase that percentage to 90% +.

(I say a "target" because I find that I don't get particularly consistent results with the 21st Century tool and my SPI 10G011 micrometer. When I measure areas that have been trimmed I don't get constant results. The accuracy of the micrometer is meant to be +/- 1/10 of a thou. I measure wider variances - more like +/- 3/10.)

Awhile ago I made an estimate of release dimension. I measured a bunch of fired brass external neck diameters. They were all 0.345-6". I guess the chamber might be fractionally wider as the brass contracts a little as it cools. So basically a SAAMI spec chamber at the neck (which I understand to be 0.3462 at the shoulder/neck junction and 0.3442 at the end of the neck section). Assuming 0.346" and an average 0.0135" neck wall thickness then I have a release dimension of 0.346- 2 x 0.0135 - 0.308 = 11 thou. (Based on my guesstimate above a third of the brass neck area overall would have another thou of clearance.) Seems like it's on the high side and I should just stop at my current setting.

My 308 chamber (and rifle) is what it is. I get the opportunity, however, to pay closer attention to the importance of these dimensions in my forthcoming custom build.