8208XBR 90gr 223 Loads?

[MikeMcCasland]

Gents,

I've been loading pointed 90gr SMKs behind Varget with pretty good accuracy results, but I'm seeing some anomalies with SD/ES. I know there are other powders that are better suited for 90s in this platform, but I've got a ton of 8208 XBR on hand and I wanted to give it a go.

That said, I'm loading Varget well above book specs due to the freebore (.170) of my rifle, and I was wondering if anyone had tried 8208 with 90s in a ~.169/.170 chamber using lapua brass? If so, what were your rough powder charges?

I'm thinking of starting at book max (19.6gr) with 8208 XBR, and working up in .2gr increments until I see pressure signs or ~2800+ velocity. If I had to guess, I'll start seeing pressure around 22-23gr, but I don't have quickload access, and nobody seems to be running this combo.

Any thoughts or guidance yall could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Terry]

Friendly Bump

 

[LVLAaron]

I can quickload it for you if you tell me your OAL.

FWIW: 8208 is awesome but it tends to get dangerous pretty quickly.

 

[dstoenner]

FWIW: 8208 is awesome but it tends to get dangerous pretty quickly.

I don't shoot 90's but I do use 8208. I found that in my 1:8 twist barrels that 8208 shot about 25% smaller groups than Varget. With 77 and 80 SMK's or AMax's, Varget shot better. Also another thought is how temperature sensitive 8208 is compared to Varget. Hot days may get you in trouble

David

 

[Snuggie]

How many grains of Varget were you using? I shot the 8208XBR with the 80’s but not the 90’s. What twist barrel for 90’s ? I used 23.2 gr with the80’s in a 7.7 TW and they were lasers, I thought, till I went with the 90’s in a 6.5 TW with 24.5 Varget. REALLY a laser and bucks the wind MUCH better. Good enough to make HM with it!

 

[Laurie]

Also another thought is how temperature sensitive 8208 is compared to Varget. Hot days may get you in trouble

IMR-8208 XBR is from the same source as VarGet and the other Hodgdon 'Extreme' grades and is another member of the same family. (ie made by Thales-ADI in Mulwala, New South Wales not General Dynamics, Valleyfield, Quebec as with most IMR powders.) At the time 8208 was introduced, Hodgdon claimed it was its most temperature tolerant grade yet, the implication being it is better than VarGet.

Personally, I reckon it's a mite fast burning for 90s, but always worth trying. It may still give very good results albeit at lower MVs than VarGet.

 

[dstoenner]

IMR-8208 XBR is from the same source as VarGet and the other Hodgdon 'Extreme' grades and is another member of the same family. (ie made by Thales-ADI in Mulwala, New South Wales not General Dynamics, Valleyfield, Quebec as with most IMR powders.) At the time 8208 was introduced, Hodgdon claimed it was its most temperature tolerant grade yet, the implication being it is better than VarGet.

Personally, I reckon it's a mite fast burning for 90s, but always worth trying. It may still give very good results albeit at lower MVs than VarGet.

Laurie,

I have a list of temp coefficients for various powders and looking it up, Varget is .19 fps/F and 8208 is listed as .59 fps/F. I don't know if that list is right.

Can you comment on what I have also heard that 8208's characteristics really change with increased chamber pressure. Effectively a runaway condition.

David

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Well, I ran 8208 XBR behind the 90s today. I ran charges from 20gr, all the way up to 24gr.

29" Barrel
Running these .010 jammed

Load Data:
90gr SMK
Lapua Brass
CCI BR4 Primers
2.085 (Hornady Tool)
2.608" OAL


I apologize for the sporadic nature of the velocities, but I didn't run all of them over the chronograph.

20.8gr - 2427 FPS - 13 SD
22.7gr - 2650 FPS - 7.6 SD
23.4gr - 2714 FPS - 13.5 SD (light primer flow)
23.6gr - 2737FPS - 15.2 SD (light primer flow)
24.0gr - 2766FPS - 18 SD (light primer flow)


Accuracy was generally better than varget, but not where I need it to be when I ramp the velocities up. I ordered ~300 Berger 90gr VLDs to try, I'm thinking those will end up working better than the Sierras.

I will say I get amazing accuracy out of the sierras behind both varget and 8208, but only at extremely slow velocities. I'm guessing here, but at the 2300 FPS range, I turned in 4 seperate 5 shot groups that were in the high .2" at 100 yards

 

[skiutah02]

I have quite a bit of experience with the 90vld in 223R including a brief experiment with 8208XBR. I shot one of the best groups wrt vertical at 600yds I had ever at that point in time (and perhaps ever) using virgin neckturned Lapua brass. Great SDs and terrific speeds (just a touch over 2900fps). I was elated. Here is the target from that day. Now for the rest of the story...



When I got back to the line, my bubble was burst. When I picked up the 7 fired cases, the primers fell out. Ruined all 7 virgin cases. Primer pocket was toast. Oh well, maybe at MR Nationals when its freezing out....

Drew

 

[jsthntn247]

I have quite a bit of experience with the 90vld in 223R including a brief experiment with 8208XBR. I shot one of the best groups wrt vertical at 600yds I had ever at that point in time (and perhaps ever) using virgin neckturned Lapua brass. Great SDs and terrific speeds (just a touch over 2900fps). I was elated. Here is the target from that day. Now for the rest of the story...
View attachment 1073758


When I got back to the line, my bubble was burst. When I picked up the 7 fired cases, the primers fell out. Ruined all 7 virgin cases. Primer pocket was toast. Oh well, maybe at MR Nationals when its freezing out....

Drew

These brass makers need to do better. Can’t they get some pixy dust and unicorn tears to make some primer pockets with. Geeze, we won’t ever catch those 08 ers

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I have quite a bit of experience with the 90vld in 223R including a brief experiment with 8208XBR. I shot one of the best groups wrt vertical at 600yds I had ever at that point in time (and perhaps ever) using virgin neckturned Lapua brass. Great SDs and terrific speeds (just a touch over 2900fps). I was elated. Here is the target from that day. Now for the rest of the story...
View attachment 1073758


When I got back to the line, my bubble was burst. When I picked up the 7 fired cases, the primers fell out. Ruined all 7 virgin cases. Primer pocket was toast. Oh well, maybe at MR Nationals when its freezing out....

Drew

You gave me a cause for concern there; I just went and seated new primers into the cases I fired today. Looks like the pockets are still relatively tight.

The ones I shot weren't blown primers hot, but I was starting to see the primer try and flow back into the firing pin hole; nothing bad though.

 

[Laurie]

Laurie,

I have a list of temp coefficients for various powders and looking it up, Varget is .19 fps/F and 8208 is listed as .59 fps/F. I don't know if that list is right.

Can you comment on what I have also heard that 8208's characteristics really change with increased chamber pressure. Effectively a runaway condition.

David

Two if not three 8208s have been around in recent years. IIRC, the original IMR-8208 was developed by Dupont Industries for a military requirement but before the US Army made it plain that they were only interested in using smallarms ammunition loaded with ball type propellants. It was used in a special tracer (??) 5.56mm NATO loading to a government spec and originally appeared as a surplus grade. In fact, I have a memory tickle that says it originally appeared on the market in the form of surplus cartridges which somebody demilled. In any event, the short-range benchresters discovered it and it acquired quite a reputation in the PPCs. This form is linked in a way I can't now recall to the fabled T-32 powder which somebody else now makes in the USA. (LT-32??) The whole complicated story and history were covered in the Benchrest.com forum at one time - I don't know if it's still available there.

Having failed to get its ADI manufactured Benchmark powder to knock Viht N133 off the prestigious short-range BR winners' rostrum, Hodgdon Powder Co. than apparently went to its innovative and cooperative supplier Thales / ADI and asked if they could replicate this fabled IMR product ....... and if possible, improve on it especially in making it temperature unaffected. This must have been around 10 years ago. Apparently ADI delivered on this as Lou Murdica and some other top US short-range BR shooters were using a pre-production supply in 2009 with great results. Here's what Mr Murdica said as reported in the Accurate Shooter Bulletin of October 3rd 2009:

IMR 8208 XBR is Consistent in All Conditions
This short grain extruded rifle powder exhibits exceptional stability with virtually no change in velocity at temperatures ranging from -40 degrees F to 165+ degrees F. Lou Murdica, who helped develop this new powder, confirms that it is not temp-sensitive. Lou told us: “I have been shooting IMR 8208 XBR for over a year and I have done a lot of winning shooting it. One of the great things about this particular powder is, I always shoot the same load whether I shoot it in Florida or Phoenix AZ. I have never had to adjust for temperature or humidity.” That’s big news in the short-range BR game. Currently, most competitors must tailor their load to suit conditions.

IMR 8208 XBR is Already Winning Matches
Lou Murdica, one of the nation’s top BR shooters, won numerous matches with 8208 XBR in 2009, including the Heavy Varmint Grand Agg at the Cactus Classic. In August 2009, Jim Carmichel won the Heavy Varmint Grand Agg at the IBS Group Nationals. What is significant here is that Jim shot the exact same load of IMR 8208 XBR both days to win the event. That’s right–this powder requires far less “tuning” than most other powders currently used in short-range benchrest.

Product Development and Performance
Lou Murdica revealed some interesting facts about IMR 8208 XBR. Lou explained that the development team was initially trying to produce a propellant that would match the desireable characteristics of the “classic” T32 powder from the 1960s. In the process of developing a T-Powder clone, Lou says that the Hodgdon/IMR powder wizards came up with something even better: “We were originally pursuing a formula like T-Powder, but we came up with something a bit different. It was so good, and shot so well, that we didn’t want to lose it. It turned out that this stuff shot as well or better than the earlier T-clone mixtures and was incredibly stable.”

So far, so very good and Hodgdon launched its new IMR-8208XBR at SHOT 2010 ADI having put it into full production for first deliveries later in 2010. Accurate Shooter interviewed Chris Hodgdon at the show and covered 8208 XBR in a report on the Bulletin dated January 28th 2010. Here's an extract:

At SHOT Show 2010, we interviewed Chris Hodgdon, who gave us the “inside story” on this new powder. Before we started taping, Chris shared with us lab test results showing how pressure of a fixed load varied with ambient temperature. The data was stunning. Basically 8208 XBR showed almost constant pressures from below freezing to well over 100° F. This editor has personally never seen a powder test that revealed “flat-line” results like 8208 XBR, with recorded pressures remaining virtually unchanged over a huge temperature range. If the test results are to be believed, this is indeed a very exceptional powder.

Let's call this stuff 8208 Type 2. I'm 100% sure neither Messrs Murdica nor Hodgdon were deceiving anybody and this version did what was claimed. As an ADI manufactured 'Extreme' extruded grade logic says it should have been given a Hodgdon name and put into that product range, but presumably for marketing reasons it was launched as IMR-8208 with 'XBR' added onto the end to differentiate it from the now elderly surplus (Dupont) IMR product.

Something seemed to have changed though with the production grade 8208 XBR from those samples provided to top BR competitors in 2009. I don't recall anybody complaining of temperature sensitivity, but it was reported as having a very different burning rate and it simply didn't perform. Again, another 'memory tickle' intrudes here, as I seem to recall vociferous complaints too that early production lots not only varied from the 'Murdica version' but that they varied markedly from each other. I'm sure somebody on the forum with direct experience of the saga will clarify these events should they read this. In any event, it was all academic to us in the UK as we generally get new US launched powders a year or two later. By the time it turned up here, nobody was claiming it as a PPC 'wonder powder', rather as another ADI 'Extreme' grade that was confusingly listed as IMR and didn't appear to do anything that H4895 and VarGet didn't do with the possible exception of metering better in mechanical powder throwers.

It did have one great plus for us in the UK though - availability! - which is how I happened to start using it. Back in mid 2012, people were prepared to kill to get H4895 and VarGet and with the exception of one small consignment IIRC in autumn 2013 or 2014 that sold out in under 48 hours, these two products were simply unobtainable for a couple of years. As few Brits had even heard of 8208 - and it was an IMR grade anyway, so not as good in some people's minds - it was briefly available even in reasonable quantities from a single production lot, which is how I managed to bag 12lb of the stuff for use 308 Win with 155s which we were shooting in the GB F-TR team at the time.

My UK load worked up in 60-deg F performed just fine with a different production lot supplied locally in the USA for the FCWC at Raton in August 2013. It went a bit faster but still ran quarter to third MOA 100 yard groups and small ES figures with 155.5 Bergers at the exact same charge weight as at home and gave me no problems at all over two weeks of US Nationals and the Worlds in temperatures that were well into the 90s in week one especially. No pressure problems appeared and I still use the brass. (The same couldn't be said for many other powders that our GB F-Open colleagues used in their 7WSMs - no names, no pack drill as the old British Army phrase has it.) So, my experience of 8208XBR is very good. US F-TR team members (who went to great lengths to help us out when we had powder and primer non-delivery problems) said they'd tried 8208XBR, had very consistent and good results, but had stuck with H. VarGet as it gave higher MVs before pressure issues kicked in. (I'm not sure what bullet they were referring to as the US F-TR team had by then switched to the 185 Berger Juggernaut - in any event I'd expect VarGet to do this even with 155s as 8208 is a tad too fast burning for ultimate MVs, hence my doubts about it in 223 with 90s.)

S-o-o-o-o ....... I can only assume your temperature sensitivity value of 0.59 fps / deg F refers to the original 8208. As to the runaway pressures issue, I can only say that doesn't accord with my experience of the powder. Actually 0.59 is a poor result for a standard single-based extruded type never mind an ADI made 'Extreme' as Applied Ballistics gives 0.3-0.5 as the likely range for an 'average' example of the type. 8208 XBR is definitely an ADI 'Extreme' and is currently still listed by ADI as ADI 'Bench Mark 8208' in its local product range for Australian handloaders.

PS where did you get the fps / temp values from? (I'm always interested in additional data sources.)

 

[urbanrifleman]

I can quickload it for you if you tell me your OAL.

FWIW: 8208 is awesome but it tends to get dangerous pretty quickly.

It is a great powder for lighter bullets but I cannot imagine it being ideal for 90 grain bullets.

 

[shoot4fun]

8208XBR is quite temp sensitive and also, in my experience, shi*zophrenic (BAT SH*T CRAZY). It has been a powder that will not show you any sort of pressure sign but yet be well over max pressure. I have experienced this and so have some of my shooting buds. All looked good but primer pockets were trashed with the first firing. It is the one powder I will not go above the suggested maximum loads on; not even a tenth!

 

[dstoenner]

S-o-o-o-o ....... I can only assume your temperature sensitivity value of 0.59 fps / deg F refers to the original 8208. As to the runaway pressures issue, I can only say that doesn't accord with my experience of the powder. Actually 0.59 is a poor result for a standard single-based extruded type never mind an ADI made 'Extreme' as Applied Ballistics gives 0.3-0.5 as the likely range for an 'average' example of the type. 8208 XBR is definitely an ADI 'Extreme' and is currently still listed by ADI as ADI 'Bench Mark 8208' in its local product range for Australian handloaders.

PS where did you get the fps / temp values from? (I'm always interested in additional data sources.)

Laurie,

That was quite a recitation on the product. I cannot say where I got my data directly. A post somewhere along the line gave a list of values and I just cut and pasted into a word document because I didn't have a list of values. I can say that I use the H4350 number in my ballistic solver for 1000 F-Class and it tracks very well.

I am attaching the file for your examination. Like I said, I cannot vouch for its veracity.

Thanks again.

David

well it won't let me attach the .doc file so here is its contents

* = degree Fahrenheit

Varget .19 fps per *

H1000 .21 fps per *

H4895 .23 fps per *

H4350 .29 fps per *

H4831 .36 fps per *

Benchmark .44 fps per *

AA4350 .47 fps per *

Retumbo .49 fps per *

Imr4064 .53 fps per *

Imr8208xbr .59 fps per *

Imr4350 .64 fps per *

RL10x .71 fps per*

Imr3031 .73 fps per *

Alliant AR comp .77 fps per *

Hybrid 100v .78 fps per *

Ramshot Hunter .86 fps per *

Imr4895 .87 fps per *

Ramshot Magnum .87 fps per *

Alliant Varmint pro .89 fps per *

Ramshot Tac .91 fps per *

AA2520 .98 fps per *

Ramshot Biggame .98 fps per *

PP2000MR .99 fps per *

Magpro 1.01 fps per *

VV N150 1.08 fps per *

AA4064 1.11 fps per *

Imr4227 1.17fps per *

Imr4831 1.19 fps per *

HS-6 1.21fps per *

H110/W296 1.24 fps per *

VV N160 1.24 fps per *

Lil' Gun 1.31 fps per *

W748 1.32 fps per *

Imr4320 1.32 fps per *

Imr7828 1.36 fps per *

H414/W760 1.42 fps per *

RL17 1.42 fps per *

H380 1.44 fps per *

RL15 1.52 fps per * from 50* and up

RL25 1.59 fps per *

RL19 1.61 fps per *

H50bmg 1.64 fps per *

US869 1.68 fps per *

RL22 1.71 fps per *

 

[Laurie]

Many thanks for that listing David. Very interesting - if correct, it suggests that the Applied Ballistics guidelines are far too conservative for most single-based powders. I've done a copy and paste job on it myself and just have to remember where the file is!

I hope somebody chips in with the post 2009 production lots 8208 saga. Sadly, it seems on the face of it, that this was a project with great hopes and promise that somehow lost its way. Nevertheless, it's a useful powder for some applications, but apparently isn't one that likes being 'pushed' outside of its operating comfort zone.

We can no longer import any Hodgdon / ADI extruded propellants thanks to EU health & safety regulations, nor any of the older pre-'Enduron' Dupont / Valleyfield IMR grades, nor around half of the Hodgdon / Gen Dynamics St. Marks grades including old favourites like H414. We therefore won't see any more 8208 here, or of greater import for most handloaders, H4895, VarGet, H4350, H4831. I'm sure I'll find some useful application for my remaining stock of 8208 though despite my rarely shooting 308 these days.

 

[Beau]

We can no longer import any Hodgdon / ADI extruded propellants thanks to EU health & safety regulations, nor any of the older pre-'Enduron' Dupont / Valleyfield IMR grades, nor around half of the Hodgdon / Gen Dynamics St. Marks grades including old favourites like H414. We therefore won't see any more 8208 here, or of greater import for most handloaders, H4895, VarGet, H4350, H4831. I'm sure I'll find some useful application for my remaining stock of 8208 though despite my rarely shooting 308 these days.

OMG! What's left for you to use? Can you even load 308?

 

[Laurie]

We're actually still very well supplied. There is: Alliant, IMR (Endurons), Nitrochemie (Reload Swiss), Vihtavuori, Lovex (Shooters World in the US), Ramshot, and a few Hodgdon 'sphericals' (the CFEs and Li'l Gun). Lovex and Ramshot distribution / availability are a bit spotty. Norma (Bofors) powders have also reappeared after a gap of around 20 years.

The big winners so far have been Viht and Reload Swiss. Many UK handloaders switched to Viht long before the ban because VarGet, H4350/4831 and other popular grades were so often and so lengthily unobtainable in recent years. Viht is the most widely stocked and available marque here and it's rare for anything to be out of stock. It also became much less expensive than Hodgdon in recent times.

Reload Swiss is fairly new and its dealership network makes it hard for some people to buy it. It has some outstanding grades - RS52 does everything VarGet does and usually better and RS62 is a great replacement for H4350.

What we lack now are equivalents that match the best of Hodgdon's temperature tolerance, but that's far less of an issue here than in the US. We also lack a really good single-based alternative to H4831sc that will give as high performance and flexibility in cartridges like 284 Win in match use. There has been talk of Nitrochemie doing a single-based equivalent, but so far no sign. Alliant Reloder series powders should do well too, but we've not received any of the 'TX' grades so far - AR-Comp, Re16 and suchlike.

 

[Beau]

we've not received any of the 'TX' grades so far - AR-Comp, Re16 and suchlike.

That surprises me. I thought that stuff was made by Bofors.

 

[Laurie]

Correct, but the importer still hasn't procured any to date. I'm hoping that this will change now that the Hodgdon range has nearly disappeared. I keep being asked on UK forums if I've tried Re16, have I any tips on it ... etc, etc, and I have to keep repeating you can't get it here yet.