HP rules concerning shot spotter sizes

[rardoin]

Our club (Palo Alto R&P Club, Louisiana) has always operated matches by the interpretation of the HP rules that all spotters must be the same size for all targets although the chosen size has some options. Many F-class shooters, including myself, prefer the 1.5" spotters at 600yds but being that we also host 'sling' classes at the same shoots we have stuck with the 3" spotter for all. I was surprised that shooters were able to choose spotter size for any particular match, sometimes even changing within a match, at the F-Class Nats in Raton. If there are any HP comp board members reading this I would appreciate your feedback as to the legality, in the eyes of the NRA, of 'mixing' spotters for different shooters. I certainly enjoyed the option of using a small spotter.

Robin

 

[Ned Ludd]

I seem to recall that used to be specifically outlined in the rules (F-Class section), along with the use of unique target markings or identifiers; however, it seems to have fallen by the wayside as the Highpower Rules have changed over they years and I can't find it mentioned any longer in the F-Class section. The idea was that a having different sized spotter or some other unique target identifier would give a shooter an advantage in terms of preventing crossfires. If everyone uses the same thing, it shouldn't matter. The smaller 1.25" (about) shot markers are much more appropriate for F-Class, especially MR, because they don't obscure the entire X-ring, and also don't get shot to pieces as often.

 

[Loggins J]

I think it should be the shooters choice a sling shooters can't tell the size of the spotter without a scope but the Fclass shooters can see the size of the scoring rings I prefer a smaller spotter so you can judge where your shot is at on the target check the rules see if you can use a smaller one i think that they is nothing in the rules on the size of the spotter maybe a club rules

 

[chkunz]

It is always best to start by consulting the rules.


14.17 Use of Shot Hole Spotters—When targets are operated from a pit,


shot hole spotters are used to show the location of hits; white spotters for

hits in the aiming black and black spotters for hits elsewhere (including hits

scored as misses). (See Rule 14.1.) In slow fire, a spotter is placed in the first

hit, the target exposed and the value signaled, and the target is left exposed

for the next shot. As each succeeding shot is fired the target is withdrawn,

the spotter moved to the new hit, the previous shot hole covered with a target

paster and the target is re–exposed and the new hit value signaled. In rapid

fire, spotters are placed in all hits of the string, or as many as feasible, before

exposing the target to signal the values. After signaling all hits, the target is

withdrawn, spotters removed and holes pasted before the next string. In the

case of excessive or insufficient hits in rapid fire, spotters shall not be inserted

in the target until directed by the Pit Officer. The same size spotter will be

utilized on all targets for each stage of fire. The following spotters will be used:

(a) A 1.5 inch or smaller spotter for rapid fire.

(b) A 3 inch or smaller spotter for slow fire, 200 yards through 600 yards.

(c) A 5 inch or smaller spotter for all ranges in excess of 600 yards.

 

[FatBoy]

That may be the rule but nobody is using a spotter that is the same size as the x ring.

 

[rardoin]

It is always best to start by consulting the rules.

Yes, I understand the rules as written. The rules were not followed as written at the F-Class Nats (which I am fine with). I have concerns that if we do not follow the spotter rule and allow a mix of spotters during a stage, as in Raton, that the match results can be rejected by the NRA/ potential records disallowed and such. I think that would be highly unlikely if the national championships allowed mixed spotters. Perhaps it is time for a petition to the Competition Board. I suppose for our upcoming state championship registered match we will have to stick strictly to the rules as written to be safe.

 

[Doug Beach]

I think it should be the shooters choice a sling shooters can't tell the size of the spotter without a scope....
As a sling shooter, at 600 & 1k, I can absolutely tell the difference between the different spotters, in many conditions, without using my spotting scope.
I think the rules should be changed to specify a golf tee or paster at 300, a 1.25” at 5-600, and a 3” at 8-1000. I see no need for the 5” spotters.

 

[Taildrag15X]

Yes, I understand the rules as written. The rules were not followed as written at the F-Class Nats (which I am fine with). I have concerns that if we do not follow the spotter rule and allow a mix of spotters during a stage, as in Raton, that the match results can be rejected by the NRA/ potential records disallowed and such. I think that would be highly unlikely if the national championships allowed mixed spotters. Perhaps it is time for a petition to the Competition Board. I suppose for our upcoming state championship registered match we will have to stick strictly to the rules as written to be safe.

Do you have a copy of the Match Program for the Nationals? It may be covered in it, if not you are correct that the scores and Records could be rejected if anyone made an official protest.

 

[FatBoy]

The rule, as written, does not take into account 1) the half MOA sized X ring on F Class targets and 2) e-targets, which can show the spotter as tiny as you can zoom the screen with coordinates off center X.

I have to believe the NRA just missed the spotter size adjustment when the "new" F Class target was adopted and assumed everyone would continue to use a spotting disc half the size of the X ring at distance when possible. Is it possible it's covered in one of the ammedments for F Class sometime back? There is no way they would want or allow a spotter to be used that can completely obscure a x ring or scoring ring. Not only does it not follow the long standing observed ratio, it's a safety issue at 600. Hell 1.5" spotters have become safety issues.

Also, it's my understanding (and I may be wrong here) that if spotter size is covered in the match directors briefing before the match the use of non-approved sized spotters should be allowed and legal, but I am open to be corrected on this.

Also, that match should have had a jury or a Ref. Was the spotter sized protested at the match? If not, then IMO it's too late. A protest at this point would smacked sour grapes.

 

[chkunz]

Notice that the rule says "or smaller".
However they all have to be the same size for all targets.

 

[FatBoy]

Notice that the rule says "or smaller".
However they all have to be the same size for all targets.

good catch.

 

[Papa Charlie]

At the club I shoot 500 yard MR F-TR, we use 1" spotters. These are disks that are glued to golf tees. It is not unusual for us to hit so many that we have to just use the golf tee alone as we run out of the larger spotters.
Is it possible that the rules have changed for F-Class to state that as long as all class shooters are using the same spotter, it is acceptable. Using a 3" spotter on a target with an X that is 2" approximately, makes no sense to me whats so ever.

 

[chkunz]

At the club I shoot 500 yard MR F-TR, we use 1" spotters. These are disks that are glued to golf tees. It is not unusual for us to hit so many that we have to just use the golf tee alone as we run out of the larger spotters.
Is it possible that the rules have changed for F-Class to state that as long as all class shooters are using the same spotter, it is acceptable. Using a 3" spotter on a target with an X that is 2" approximately, makes no sense to me whats so ever.

Notice my reply above, the rule says "or smaller" they just have to be the same size on all targets.

 

[rardoin]

Notice my reply above, the rule says "or smaller" they just have to be the same size on all targets.

Exactly...hence the need for agreement on spotter size before each match. The real issue is when we shoot with iron sight classes along with F-class. Not fair to have them try to pick up a 1.5" spotter at 600yds. I wish the rule were different.

For the record...I have no issue with the use of mixed spotters at Raton....again, I prefer the choice.

 

[dskogman]

We were using plain golf tees at 300 in Raton and they were still getting shot to hell.
It’s not an advantage if you can choose what you want.

 

[chkunz]

Exactly...hence the need for agreement on spotter size before each match. The real issue is when we shoot with iron sight classes along with F-class. Not fair to have them try to pick up a 1.5" spotter at 600yds. I wish the rule were different.

For the record...I have no issue with the use of mixed spotters at Raton....again, I prefer the choice.

I do not think having a different size spotter for the F Class shooters than the conventional prone (sling) shooters would be in violation of the rules or at least the spirit of the rules. Allowing shooters to chose and having different sizes within F Class or within the Conventional shooters would be in violation of the rules. If you allow that and your match is protested I would expect you would lose and that would be unfair to a competitor who would have set a record.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Exactly...hence the need for agreement on spotter size before each match. The real issue is when we shoot with iron sight classes along with F-class. Not fair to have them try to pick up a 1.5" spotter at 600yds. I wish the rule were different.

For the record...I have no issue with the use of mixed spotters at Raton....again, I prefer the choice.

Simple solution - run Sling and F-Class as different matches. They simply happen to fire simutaeously. No rules against that. Nobody is disadvantaged. They don't shoot against each other anyway.

 

[rardoin]

Simple solution - run Sling and F-Class as different matches. They simply happen to fire simutaeously. No rules against that. Nobody is disadvantaged. They don't shoot against each other anyway.

Keith, that is what I am considering bringing up with the M.D.. I posed that question to the NRA HP comp. committee via e-mail and assume that we would be fine but it would make the M.D. more comfortable if I had it 'in writing'. Now....if we get a stray from the F-Class herd that wants a 3" spotter then we may have an issue.

Robin

 

[FatBoy]

We run the F Class LR regional and state Championship with a concurrent registered prone match. Been doing it for 11 years, no problem at all getting the program approved by the NRA.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Simple solution - run Sling and F-Class as different matches. They simply happen to fire simutaeously. No rules against that. Nobody is disadvantaged. They don't shoot against each other anyway.

The targets are different for Sling and F-Class, why wouldn't the spotters be different as well?