Need a new scope,Found 1 Thanks to all

[Randall Hardy]

I am looking for a new scope for my 6br pdog rifle. I believe I would like something ffp reticle, moa style I' m to old to learn mil's I don't understand the concept. I had a sightron s3 10-50 on it the last 2 years, looking for something new.
Any help or suggestions would be appreciated
Thanks
Randy

 

[msinc]

I have to ask....why would you want FFP???? A. For prairie dogs {because the reticle gets thicker when you zoom up sometimes obliterating the little dog} and B. If you are not going to use mils anyway. I mean, don't get me wrong...you are the only one that has to be happy, so whatever gets you thru the night. A mil/mil scope really is way easier to learn and use than MOA. Not terribly sure that it would apply heavily to prairie dogs though. I always thought, or at least it always appeared to me that you go out, find a dog town and get back to a desired, well known, confirmed, lasered in range and set up and when they come out shoot.
Unless you are in a scenario where you intend to try to range on a lot of different unknown ranges and have to do it thru the scope why worry about FFP and mils or moa?? There are some neat scopes out there, one thing to be aware of is that all these trinkets and features up the price of the good ones. Again, buy what you want...I am just as or more so guilty of expensive, tactical, military style scopes to kill small animals as anyone alive!!!

 

[fyrewall]

I like a minimum 14 X, a variable going up to 20X is another consideration. As mentioned by msinc the little rodents might be covered by the reticle at higher powers thus sort of making fine aiming difficult.

The mil concept is more logical than MOA - mil being 1/1000 of whatever. Like there are 3600 inches in 100 yards, 1 mil being 3.6 inches @ 100 yards, and the usual 1/10 mil click is .36 inches. In Euro talk 100 meters would have 10,000 centimeters, 1 mil would be 10 centimeters, and 1/10 mil click would be 1 centimeter, at 1 klick a 1/10 mil click would equal 10 centimeters or 3.94 inches vs 2.5 practical inches with a 1/4 MOA click scope at 1,000 yards. Having a mil type reticle and 1/10 mil clicks really helps. The 1st FFP reticle provides equal reticle intervals at all powers.

I like to play around with stuff while shooting rodents at long ranges but dislike fat 1st FFP reticle features when I jack the power up. My favorite rodent and hunting scope is a Leupold 4.5-14X40 M4 30mm Tac type with a 2nd or rear focal plane, fine duplex reticle and 1/4 MOA clicks. I also have a bunch of other scopes. Ranging on various features of known sizes is fun but a distraction from the primary purpose of the expedition being shooting lots of rodents. Besides my laser range finder is quick and easy to use. I am starting to play around with the Leupold CDS system, wind plex reticle, on a .22-.250 with 75 Amax/ELD bullets - quick and easy but how well will it compare to the 1/4 MOA adjustments in the M4.

Observe, that the warranty on illuminated reticles in limited with many brands.

 

[Randall Hardy]

Thanks for your response guys. Yes I use the reticle for rough ranging as I don't carry a range finder. The problem I encounter is the subtensions changing based on magnification. Thus the idea of ffp. I did wonder if the reticle would become to fat at higher magnification. I was considering a Burris xtr11 8x40 fclass, these appeared to be a very fine reticle. My opposition to mils is simply based on my other rifles are all moa based. I have Leupolds with the varmint reticle on both my other rifles. Both being the 6.5-20x50 one consideration is the 8.5-25x50 with the varmint reticle.

 

[Ken]

I have to agree with Randall. I had a mil scope on one of my pd rifles. After years of moa it was not what I wanted. Old dogs etc. It is for sale now. A Steiner Military 4-16

 

[hogpatrol]

Triijicon Accupoint 5x20 with a colored dot of your choosing.

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product1.php?id=AccuPoint

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

If you don’t like the SFP Accupoint, then this MOA reticle has a really fine floating crosshair that’s good for hunting. http://www.nightforceoptics.com/sites/default/files/NFO_MOAR_F1_20180411.pdf. I like my ATACR but it’s a different model - I’m not a p-dog hunter - yet.

It’s available in the ATACR 4-16x42 1FP model which would probably be around $2k if you shop hard, or in the SHV 4-14x50 1FP “budget” model which is still gonna be around $1k+. I have not owned an SHV model.

 

[Randall Hardy]

If you don’t like the SFP Accupoint, then this MOA reticle has a really fine floating crosshair that’s good for hunting. http://www.nightforceoptics.com/sites/default/files/NFO_MOAR_F1_20180411.pdf. I like my ATACR but it’s a different model - I’m not a p-dog hunter - yet.

It’s available in the ATACR 4-16x42 1FP model which would probably be around $2k if you shop hard, or in the SHV 4-14x50 1FP “budget” model which is still gonna be around $1k+. I have not owned an SHV model.

I' ve looked at the shv I would prefer the 5-20 but that seems to be only 2nd fp. I do like the reticle however, another reticle that I like is the np-1rr. My intent is to keep this purchase south of 1k as they only come out once a year, and were only shooting rats.

 

[Bart B.]

The 1st FFP reticle provides equal reticle intervals at all powers.

Only when target and focus range don't change.

The image size in the first focal plane gets bigger when the scope objective lens moves forward away from it focused at shorter ranges. The same angle change of the inner tube spans a lesser amount of the target image.

Scopes with a fixed objective lens and side focus knob may have less change in reticle movement on target per click.

First focal plane image size across a given make and model will change in size the same percent spread in objective lens focal lengths. A 1 percent spread is common.

Such is the compromise made when internal windage and elevation adjustments are used. Turret clicks' change to the line of sight angle ain't the same all the time.

Keep this in mind when thinking a 1 click change on a knob always moves the line of sight some exact amount.

 

[slm9s]

Sightron SIII ffp 6-24

 

[fyrewall]

Only when target and focus range don't change.

The image size in the first focal plane gets bigger when the scope objective lens moves forward away from it focused at shorter ranges. The same angle change of the inner tube spans a lesser amount of the target image.

Scopes with a fixed objective lens and side focus knob may have less change in reticle movement on target per click.

First focal plane image size across a given make and model will change in size the same percent spread in objective lens focal lengths. A 1 percent spread is common.

Such is the compromise made when internal windage and elevation adjustments are used. Turret clicks' change to the line of sight angle ain't the same all the time.

Keep this in mind when thinking a 1 click change on a knob always moves the line of sight some exact amount.

Is there any practical aspect to this?

 

[Delfuego]

Is there any practical aspect to this?

No there is not. Show me someone that can shoot the alleged 1% variance and I will show you someone that can read wind at 1mph "all day long, if they do their part".

Randy: You never mentioned what your budget was nor what ranges you want to shoot at. Are you planning on holding or dialing? There are lots of FFP scopes that are MOA and will do what you want. However if your shooting 100-200y with a flat shooting cartridge you may never need what a lot of these scopes provide. Vortex, Nightforce, S&B, etc all make good scopes that would work for what you need, all at different price-points.

 

[Bart B.]

Is there any practical aspect to this?

None whatsoever except as a reminder that internally adjusted scopes have tolerances and knob clicks to change LOS angles and other twists to change range focus or power are not exact as spec'd.

The spread in the lenses focal lengths tolerances is typically enough than when changing focus range from infinity to 100 yards or less on a 4-16x zoom set at 16x, actual magnification is only 14.5x.

 

[Randall Hardy]

No there is not. Show me someone that can shoot the alleged 1% variance and I will show you someone that can read wind at 1mph "all day long, if they do their part".

Randy: You never mentioned what your budget was nor what ranges you want to shoot at. Are you planning on holding or dialing? There are lots of FFP scopes that are MOA and will do what you want. However if your shooting 100-200y with a flat shooting cartridge you may never need what a lot of these scopes provide. Vortex, Nightforce, S&B, etc all make good scopes that would work for what you need, all at different price-points.

My intent is to keep this south of 1k, my distances very greatly, I’m just shooting rats, often to lazy to move just grab a bigger caliber.

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my request. I know most of you shoot at a level that I cannot. On good days I may get under .3 Moa groups and be very happy with it. Unfortunately it’s not that often.
I am currently working with a gentleman on the forum for an 8.5-25/50 VXIiI with the varmint reticle. Very happy at this point because I already have 2 on my other pdog rifles.
Thanks again for everyone’s help
Randy

 

[Delfuego]

Give those P-Dogs hell Randy!

 

[GrocMax]

FFP grid shines when the rifle has very little recoil and your eye stays on target, or when the bullet flight time is long enough to get back on target and see the hit. MIL is too course for small critters. MOA or inches per 100 yds is about right. Some of the simpler christmas tree reticles work very well for PD's.

 

[Delfuego]

FFP grid shines when the rifle has very little recoil and your eye stays on target, or when the bullet flight time is long enough to get back on target and see the hit. MIL is too course for small critters. MOA or inches per 100 yds is about right. Some of the simpler christmas tree reticles work very well for PD's.

Gotta disagree with you about this. MIL works great, just ask a prairie dog

 

[GrocMax]

Guess I've never looked thru a more modern one, but I'd also like to say I don't like to shoot at high magnification, stick to 8x-12x with a rare venture to 16x. If they were marked in 1 MIL segments it would be about the same as 4 MOA segments and about right for small stuff, the ones I saw years ago were quite large like 4 MIL, too big for me. If you shoot at high magnification you can't get too small on subtensions, but if you don't it can be too small to see clearly against a darker background like grass or dirt, i.e. Vortex HS LR isn't useable at 8x, can't even see the center cross and dot, grid dots (0.1 MOA) against a darker background.

 

[Randall Hardy]

I think to when people are using the metric system regularly they are very comfortable with it and going to the american system it is probably as difficult for them as me trying to go to metric. I’ve used a standard tape measure for work for 45 years and it just makes sense to me.
My daughter and son in law are chemists and engineers they have been taught the metric system and use it daily and I’ll bet they would understand mils very well. I guess it’s and old horse new trick thing.
Happy shooting all.
Randy

 

[fyrewall]

I am finding my Leupold 12X40FX3 with a 1 moa dot reticle mounted on a 3700 fps .204 R to be real effective. No magnification changes, no reticle grid interval changes, no fat or tiny reticle features. The 1 moa dot combined with a laser range finder makes for many hits even way out there - like practical .204 ranges. I think in yards and inches and a handy pocket calculator and 39.37 inches per meter and 2.54 cm per inch gets me through stuff if needed. The relatively low 12X magnification is enough for .204 R ranges and the thin cross hairs compensate for the fat 1 moa dot that cover 4 inches of rodent at 400 yards. I have a Weaver T24 with a 1/8 moa dot reticle but don't like using it in heavy mirage. If available, a Leupold 14X40 or Weaver T14 might be ideal.