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IBS 600 2 Gun Needs Fixed

BartsBullets

BartsBullets

Guys,

I’m not trying to start a food fight, but I’d like for those who shoot IBS 600 yard bench to consider what I’m talking about and proposing. Currently the scoring system in place is close, but It could be a lot better.


PROBLEM: The Current 2 Gun Score system basically estimates 2 Gun placement and not necessarily who shot the best over the course of the day.


CURRENT METHOD
The 2 Gun Winner is determined by Adding finish positions from
LG Group+LG Score+HG Group+HG Score. The person with the lowest total wins.


SOLUTION
The current method is close but not a true depiction of who actually shot the best over the course of the day. The true Overall 2 Gun should be based on your Aggregate of 8 targets and your total Score of 8 targets. Then add your rank from both to determine 2 Gun ranking.

OVERALL AGG RANK + OVERALL SCORE RANK = 2 GUN RANK

DISCUSSION
I’ve looked at several shoots and it’s seldom that the Top 5 in the 2 Gun doesn’t change significantly!


Here’s an example of what I’m talking about. This was a 600 yard match in St. Louis April 29th 2017!


Current scoring method

LG Group+LG Score+HG Group+HG Score = total tank 2 Gun


Finish Name Total

1 Stephen Hall 18

2 Mike Moses 19

3 Joe Fesi 28

4 Bart Sauter 29

5 Steve Wilson 34


However when you look at overall 2 Gun agg + overall 2 Gun score it looks like this. Mike Moses beat Steve in BOTH!


Finish Name Agg Score Rank

1 Mike Moses 2 2 4

2 Stephen Hall 3 3 6

3 Bart Sauter 5 5 10

4 Joe Fesi 12 1 13

5 Steve Wilson 4 8 12


So Currently we have a system that you can shoot a better agg for the day a better overall score for the day and not win! Many of the ranges like St Louis are using program that already show overall group and score placement!


Here is a pic of the stats!



p46.png
 
@donovan

That’s not exactly what I’m proposing but it’s close! I’m saying an aggregate of all of your targets then a total of your scores! So 2 Gun Agg rank + 2 Gun Score = 2 Gun Finish Postion.

Adding LG overall + HG overall is a step in the right direction but still an estimate.

At The end of the day Ive shot 8 targets. I want my aggregate to be ranked against the other competitors aggregates. Then I want the same done with my overall score. Assign placement based on those two finish positions.

Really it’s the way they determine LG overall and HG overall

Bart
 
BartsBullets said:
SOLUTION
The current method is close but not a true depiction of who actually shot the best over the course of the day. The true Overall 2 Gun should be based on your Aggregate of 8 targets and your total Score of 8 targets. Then add your rank from both to determine 2 Gun ranking.

OVERALL AGG RANK + OVERALL SCORE RANK = 2 GUN RANK
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I've proposed all along.

Nobody wants to do anything.......
 
It’s all my fault. If I wouldn’t have put the 2gun aggs on the page you wouldn’t have the #’s to analyze. JK

I built the program off how I read the rules at the time and how it had been done but that doesn’t necessarily make it right. I’m always looking for feedback to make it a better program. A quick look back at the rule book and I’m not seeing a specific 2G calculation so your way may be acceptable right now.

Here’s part of the current reg.
26A245D3-435A-4EB8-987F-1A8EC4862F79.png
 
It doesn't matter to me, how they do it.
It changes very few times throughout the year, but it can change. The way they are doing it, is the way the rules stipulate.
It's funny how you never hear anyone complaining about it ,maybe a few

I have watched this since 2012 when we opened our range , actually tracked it for awhile.

You still have to shoot all 8 targets to get to the finish

But when some thing is working, (600 yd) and more than likely the biggest thing the ibs has going for it, why would you change it.

Looks to me like you need to talk to the lr committee,
 
Bart
With all do respect, do you not think that 600 yard Shooters don't already know about this and have for many years, St louis's program has done it that way forever until they changed programs.

Like I said earlier , it does not matter to me which way,
The cream will still rise to the top
 
BartsBullets said:
Stan,

I don’t think so! This is to inform 600 shooters of the issue! Better to start here then at a match!

I understand the process!

Bart
Click to expand...
Bart totally understand but how many attaboys will you get that are competitive shooters versus people that has never shot a match good luck but I would reach out to the committee on your adventure .
 
Tom E said:
It doesn't matter to me, how they do it.
It changes very few times throughout the year, but it can change. The way they are doing it, is the way the rules stipulate.
It's funny how you never hear anyone complaining about it ,maybe a few

I have watched this since 2012 when we opened our range , actually tracked it for awhile.

You still have to shoot all 8 targets to get to the finish

But when some thing is working, (600 yd) and more than likely the biggest thing the ibs has going for it, why would you change it.

Looks to me like you need to talk to the lr committee,
Click to expand...


TomE, they didn't award points in for the 2 gun then ....... it did n't start till 2013 I think, after Whitehorse open the 600 yd. range Sam or Stanley can I think verify it..... jim
 
Tom E said:
It doesn't matter to me, how they do it.
It changes very few times throughout the year, but it can change. The way they are doing it, is the way the rules stipulate.
It's funny how you never hear anyone complaining about it ,maybe a few

I have watched this since 2012 when we opened our range , actually tracked it for awhile.

You still have to shoot all 8 targets to get to the finish

But when some thing is working, (600 yd) and more than likely the biggest thing the ibs has going for it, why would you change it.

Looks to me like you need to talk to the lr committee,
Click to expand...
Tommy

I respect you ALOT! But on this you’re so wrong! The 2 Gun Top 5 changes nearly everytime! Maybe not the 2 Gun winner! But the Top 5!
Tom E said:
Bart
With all do respect, do you not think that 600 yard Shooters don't already know about this and have for many years, St louis's program has done it that way forever until they changed programs.

Like I said earlier , it does not matter to me which way,
The cream will still rise to the top
Click to expand...
Tom E said:
Bart
With all do respect, do you not think that 600 yard Shooters don't already know about this and have for many years, St louis's program has done it that way forever until they changed programs.

Like I said earlier , it does not matter to me which way,
The cream will still rise to the top
Click to expand...

Tommy,

I like and respect you a lot! But unless you can offer up a logical cogent argument against what I’m proposing you probably better just take a knee on this one. I’ve been getting my ducks in a row for over a year! I started by trying to talk to you about it, but if I recall your argument was by adding the placements together you were finding the most “Consistant Shooter”. Which was followed up by “I don’t care! Whatever”.
With that logic you just gave the guy who came in last place every time the the trophy.

I’ve discussed this with several long range committee members, match directors, and many many 600 yard shooters! Most DID NOT realize how the two Gun was calculated. The fact of the matter is No One Really cared because SOY points were not associated with it.
Now they are! Would you like more examples! I can lay them out! I’m not just looking to see if the 2 Gun winner changed, but those that should have finished in the points.

As far as the sport growing! Bullshit too many guys shooting PRS! Number are down!

Bart
 
BartsBullets said:
Tommy

I respect you ALOT! But on this you’re so wrong! The 2 Gun Top 5 changes nearly everytime! Maybe not the 2 Gun winner! But the Top 5!



Tommy,

I like and respect you a lot! But unless you can offer up a logical cogent argument against what I’m proposing you probably better just take a knee on this one. I’ve been getting my ducks in a row for over a year! I started by trying to talk to you about it, but if I recall your argument was by adding the placements together you were finding the most “Consistant Shooter”. Which was followed up by “I don’t care! Whatever”.
With that logic you just gave the guy who came in last place every time the the trophy.

I’ve discussed this with several long range committee members, match directors, and many many 600 yard shooters! Most DID NOT realize how the two Gun was calculated. The fact of the matter is No One Really cared because SOY points were not associated with it.
Now they are! Would you like more examples! I can lay them out! I’m not just looking to see if the 2 Gun winner changed, but those that should have finished in the points.

As far as the sport growing! Bullshit too many guys shooting PRS! Number are down!

BtW the cream can’t always rise to the top because they get pencil whipped!

Bart
Click to expand...
 
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