Savage 12FV in 223 Rem Accuracy Experiences

[SlowSqueeze]

Savage 12FV 223 Impressions

I got locked out of the thread while my posts were reviewed by an admin... Continuing the story...

I will pause here to give you my first impressions of the Savage 12FV in 223, with my crappy groups and all. In a word, NICE. It's solid, stable and comfortable to shoot. I had some concerns about the Accutrigger when I bought it (didn't have anything like the fancy, fangled Accutrigger in the 80's), but I love it now. I don't know exactly what the pull height is set at, but it seems light and easy. The bolt is a bit hard to cock in a solid way, but I'm happy with a solid but tough action. I'm not so sure about the bipod though- it’s slightly crooked (maybe a 3 degree rotation of the scope reticle), and I believe it's a bit imprecise the way I’m positioning for a shot. I guess there are a lot of variables from the bipod to account for, but we'll see what we can do about that.

In short, I liked the 12FV so much I ended up getting the same setup in 308 with a 20x MTAC scope (mentioned above)- the Savage FV models retail for $419 at Cabela's and regularly go on sale for less by the way.

And that got me thinking- I’m assuming that, as the shooter, I’m the overwhelming cause of the wide spread, but my ammo is also highly suspect, which is easily fixed by hand loads and some good match grade ammo. So my friends, the next step of my journey begins as we look to eliminate error and build a tack driving rifle, and more importantly, a good shooter behind the rifle!

 

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HANDLOADER IN SEARCH OF LOAD...

The one thing I know after all the reading I’ve done is that you can really drive yourself nuts over two things in particular:

1) selecting a scope, and
2) identifying a good hand-load.​

Regarding the scopes, I subscribe to the “cry once, buy once” approach, but I already had my scope in this situation. As painful as scope selection may be, identifying the best load however is more difficult to nail down. When I bought the 223 I also picked up a copy of “One Caliber, One Book” because I knew reloading was in my future. What I needed was some good information about loads for the Savage 12FV in 223 to save me some time. During my reading I came across the following article that provided some good reference data that I used to select my (starting) bullet- the 69 grain Sierra Match King (SMK).

Great 223 reloading information, including the complete guide to all things 223:
http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

This is an amazing article that focuses exclusively on case prep (not 223 specific):
http://www.6mmbr.com/JGcaseprep.html

The densest load recipes for 223 that I have found. Many include very detailed information about barrel twists and OAL data:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-550187.html

I should probably mention a beef of mine- it’s hard to find non-AR 223 data. I mean, I understand that the popularity of the AR, and it makes sense that there would be a TON of people reloading for it. But my bolt-rifle can take a much longer round that the AR magazine can handle, and the AR loads are on the hot side for what my hardware was intended. So sifting through AR loads was a bit of a chore, even though some of them are promising possibilities for me to look into…

 

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RELOADING YOUR OWN IS THE WAY TO GO- IMPROVEMENTS GALORE!

For my first 95 rounds, I wanted to conservatively pick a light load, and used 21.2 grains of IMR 4064 (ignore the weight I recorded on the target- no clue why I wrote 36 gr, which wouldn't even fit in the case). I was, and still am, using CCI 400 primers, and 69 grain Sierra Match King (SMK) bullets. I seated the SMKs at 0.020” off the lands, which ended up in an unbelievably long 2.018” (CAUTION: 2.018" is an erroneous determination) OAL to the ogive. It’s a good thing I was using such long bullets, because the throat of my Savage is apparently built for longer bullets (EDIT- this turned out to be somewhat erroneous due to errors in my OAL measurements... keep reading). That makes a lot of sense given the 1:9 twist too- there’s no point in having that twist for 55gr and lighter bullets.





With these hand loads, the average results are 0.822 MOA for 5 and 10 shot groups! That’s nearly a 50% reduction in group size from the PMC ammo, which I can now confidently, and statistically, say sucks for bench rest shooting. In all fairness however, it’s tough to beat the ammo from a cost perspective.

 

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0.1 GRAIN OF POWDER MATTERS! A LOT!!

After getting some solid handload experience under my belt it was time to start working up some real load recipes. I other words, I spent a month getting COMPLETELY wrapped around the axle trying to figure out a way to magically calculate or otherwise determine the best load. Long story short, and I’m sure you know this, there’s no best way to do it- you just have to experiment a bit.

So I started loading different charges of IMR4064 ranging from 22gr to 23.6gr and carefully keeping track of my results. All my groups are 5 shots- it just feels stronger to use 5-shot groups than 3-shots. I also shot various weights on different days, meaning I’ve got multiple data points on different days for a given weight.

In terms of brass-prep I kept things very simple. I was full length sizing (using Lee dies), simple length trimming, and cleaning my brass, but nothing else. I was also making heavy reuse of the PMC cases from my initial shooting. On a side note, the brass didn’t last very long- 3 reloads and it was showing signs of stretching and case separation.

And boy did I experiment… which yielded the following, jaw dropping (at least for me) result. Note that, for the most part, the graph below is in 1/10 grain increments, though I skipped over a few on the lower end of the graph (i.e. 22.1, 22.3, and 22.5 gr). So, now I can formally present the following chart!




Yes, 23.2 gr is really under 0.5 MOA- 0.49175 MOA to be accurate. And that’s with four, 5-shot groups, the best group coming in at an amazing 0.26 MOA.

The amazing result I see from this data, right off the bat, is a 0.1 grain change in charge weight can result in a 0.4 MOA change in precision- 22.9 gr MOA average is 0.896, while 23.0 grains is 0.521 MOA. Both averages are over 5 and 4 (data below), 5 shot groups taken on different days. It is not clear what is causing such sensitivity, but I surmise barrel harmonics is a large factor in the variation. I have never heard or read anyone suggesting that 0.1 grain difference in charge weights might cause such swings in precision. The above chart blows my mind even a year after I first plotted it!

 

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BACKING UP THE PLOT WITH DATA

Just to be thorough, below is my data table for the above graph. The different colors represent three different days that I went shooting, so you can see how I was spreading the various loads over different days to eliminate variables (i.e. temperature, wind, humidity, etc.). I didn’t color code the first three days however, so those cells are all clear.

The 21.2 grain groups are a subset of the overall data for that charge weight- I have over 12 groups in that set, so if you are trying to confirm my average MOA stated above there is more data to consider.

 

[SlowSqueeze]

SUMMING UP ON THE INITIAL RESULTS, AND LOOKING FORWARD

As a final note for my initial results, all shots were taken at 100 yards in a semi-enclosed facility (the roof was partially open). I got really excited with the above results and, in addition to becoming even more hooked on this sport of ours, have identified a host of additional improvement opportunities for the study. There are several facts that I want to adjust at the foundation of the data however, so I will not be continuing to gather data for this set.

In the near future I will be starting fresh with some carefully prepared brass (not PMC brass), and much more careful hand loading methods. My hope is to fully convey the potential of this factory rifle. For now, 23.2 grains of IMR4064, with Sierra 69gr SMK bullets, CCI400 primers, and PMC brass will yield statistical average of 0.5 MOA precision- best group was 0.26 MOA.

As I continue the experiments, I’ll be neck turning cases, weight sorting, neck sizing, and a host of other controls to make sure I can show just how much this rifle is capable of in factory form. So, I’ve spent enough time typing- let’s do some shooting!

 

[moorepower]

I would sure try H4895, and Varget for powder. Nothing wrong with 4064, but it would not be in my top 5 for the .223. Also CCI 450's, or BR4, and 7 1/2 Remingtons. You might find a 50-55 grain bullet to be more accurate also. The 1-9 will shoot 40-68-69 grain bullets well. Bedding the rifle in a good stock can also help. I have bed the tupperware with success, but it takes alot of drilling small holes in to hold the bedding material.

 

[Clucknmoan]

My 12FV shoots Varget and 70gr VLD's in the high 2's low 3's consistently. Does have an aftermarket B&C on it though. One hell of a lot of fun to shoot. On sale right now for $219.

 

[dolek]

Wow,that is some detailed writing .I just skimmed over it,will go back and give t a good read. Thanks for sharing .

 

[snowpro440]

Great read , lots of things to consider there . Have you given Varget or H335 a try? I have had pretty good luck with that combo on 2 different rifles.

 

[Texas10]

Some good analysis you got going there. One of the best shooting and cheap off the shelf choices for my 12FV in 223 is the 50 grain American Eagle Tipped ammo. I use it as a reference ammo as it frequently shoots better than my hand loads do. I have a number of targets with five shot groups in the zeros and ones. Of course there are flyers too, typical of cheap ammo, but it is amazingly accurate.

In my 223, IMR3031 with the 53 gr. V-Max and 8208XBR with the 69 gr. SMK work well.

 

[SlowSqueeze]

I would sure try H4895, and Varget for powder. Nothing wrong with 4064, but it would not be in my top 5 for the .223. Also CCI 450's, or BR4, and 7 1/2 Remingtons. You might find a 50-55 grain bullet to be more accurate also. The 1-9 will shoot 40-68-69 grain bullets well. Bedding the rifle in a good stock can also help. I have bed the tupperware with success, but it takes alot of drilling small holes in to hold the bedding material.

Ya, it wasn’t my first choice originally either, but they store was out of Varget, so I got a pound of IMR4064 and it worked well, so I stuck with it for another pound. Going forward I’ll be using H335 with 52gr from Hornady. I have also thought about bedding the synthetic stock, and might give it a try- I have a Bell & Carlson Medalist for my FV in 308. I might swap the stock once I’ve got good numbers to see what happens.

My 12FV shoots Varget and 70gr VLD's in the high 2's low 3's consistently. Does have an aftermarket B&C on it though. One hell of a lot of fun to shoot. On sale right now for $219.

I’m with you on the B&C stock (see above). For $219, which happens 2-3 times a year at Cabela’s, you simply can’t beat one of these rifles! I’ve got some Varget and will likely give it a try with some 69gr SMKs when I’m done with the 52’s.

Wow,that is some detailed writing .I just skimmed over it,will go back and give t a good read. Thanks for sharing .

Totally daleboy- I’ve got more coming in the next few months, but it’ll likely be slow progress with the cold months coming...

Great read , lots of things to consider there . Have you given Varget or H335 a try? I have had pretty good luck with that combo on 2 different rifles.

I’ve got 8 pounds (gulp) of H335 in the garage, so that’s my powder for a while! LOL. I’ll use the Varget with heavier bullets later on.

Some good analysis you got going there. One of the best shooting and cheap off the shelf choices for my 12FV in 223 is the 50 grain American Eagle Tipped ammo. I use it as a reference ammo as it frequently shoots better than my hand loads do. I have a number of targets with five shot groups in the zeros and ones. Of course there are flyers too, typical of cheap ammo, but it is amazingly accurate.

In my 223, IMR3031 with the 53 gr. V-Max and 8208XBR with the 69 gr. SMK work well.

I’ll have to pick up some of the American Eagle ammo- honestly the PMC 55gr left a bad taste in my mouth with 1.5 MOA. I’m always up for precise factory loads though! I love the 69gr SMKs, but with the coming volume of shots the cost difference in 1,000 52 gr vs the 69 grs was a factor. Don’t get me wrong, I’m definitely coming back to the 69 gr range when I’m done, but for the number of variables I’m going to be testing, I’ll need several thousand rounds. Given that everything will be at 100 yards, I didn’t see a need for anything heavier (for now).

Thanks for reading y’all, and stay tuned for some information on the next round shortly.

 

[chkunz]

SlowSqueeze, I would make one recommendation, provide the reader with a summary, no more than one page. If you have not done this before you will find it a challenge, maybe the biggest challenge to your report. I know it will help the reader and will probably help you also. Beat regards, Clyde.

 

[bloc]

Wow! This is a total labor of love, and I love it. I'm going to refer back to this regularly simply because it's exceptionally useful.

You get many, many bonus points for mentioning Sniper101 and Nut-n-Fancy. Both are fabulous and I greatly appreciate your willingness to share/give credit to others with great expertise.

UPDATE: I look forward impatiently to your future posts!

 

[SlowSqueeze]

SlowSqueeze, I would make one recommendation, provide the reader with a summary, no more than one page. If you have not done this before you will find it a challenge, maybe the biggest challenge to your report. I know it will help the reader and will probably help you also. Beat regards, Clyde.

Hi Clyde- I don’t have any problem creating a ‘1 pager’. In fact I reached out to several different organizations about writing an article on the topic (and a few others), and will likely create an article to be posted on AccurateShooter.com once it’s all done. And that’s the problem now, I have only begun the study and an no where near having completed results to share on the topic. I started this thread so people can enjoy the journey with me, and to help provide advice and insight along the way- nothing like inventing/learning what other people already know. Anyhow, thanks for the input, and check back now and then- one day I’ll be done and post the 1-pager!

Wow! This is a total labor of love, and I love it. I'm going to refer back to this regularly simply because it's exceptionally useful.

You get many, many bonus points for mentioning Sniper101 and Nut-n-Fancy. Both are fabulous and I greatly appreciate your willingness to share/give credit to others with great expertise.

UPDATE: I look forward impatiently to your future posts!

Thanks bloc! Yes, it’s an obsession, and one that causes an immense amount of frustration at times! For some gnarly reason I get really excited about making tiny holes with something that makes loud noises because of 50,000 pounds of pressure- go figure! LOL

As for the references, I’ve spent years (literally) scouring the net and finding some real gems along the way- if I can save others time by pointing them to folks who made foot prints before us I’m happy. If I can make a few prints of my own, well beers are on me!

Please keep checking back- I’ve got a few posts over the next few days before I start shooting that I’d appreciate a few extra eyeballs on!

 

[SlowSqueeze]

STUDYING FIRE-FORMED PMC BRONZE BRASS

I figured I would take some time to study my spent, fire-formed PMC brass in order to get a better understanding of my chamber. Fire-formed brass is essentially a copy of a chamber, minus some slight tolerances for the ‘spring’ of the brass. Basically the spent brass should be a very close representation of my factory barrel chamber, so studying the brass is another way of studying my chamber without taking a chamber casting.

First, I’ll present some data about the PMC brass that is not related to my chamber- namely the average weight of the brass casings. This is useful to help comparison against other cases to get an estimate of relative internal case volume.

How do I go from a cases weight to the cases internal volume you ask (if you aren’t familiar with the concept)?

Well, the argument goes like this- if the external case dimensions of two cases are identical, but the weights of the cases are different, then the change in weight must be due to brass on the inside of the cases (because the outsides shapes are the same). If there is more/less brass inside the cases, then it must take up some space, and hence the volumes of the two cases would be slightly different.

On a related note, I suspect, but have NO WAY to even begin to verify, that the minute dynamics of the cases during the firing process (internal ballistics) would also vary slightly, and be somewhat dependent on where the brass cases were different. For example, if the shoulder was formed differently, and resulted in less brass on the shoulder for one case than another, it would make sense for the shoulder to perform differently during firing. Even if it does perform differently, I’m not sure it would have a measurable effect on the precision of rounds fired from the case however. It’s all academic, but like I said earlier in the thread, I tend to take things to extremes (like pondering this kind of stuff).

In any event, here are the things I’m going to look at:

1. Case Weight (chamber independent)
2. Case Length (chamber independent)
3. Case Concentricity
4. Headspace
5. Neck Outer Diameter
6. Neck Concentricity
7. Neck Thickness (chamber independent)

 

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CASE WEIGHTS

My PMC brass was trimmed to a uniform length using the Lyman EZ case trimmer. The trimmer uses a non-adjustable pilot to set the length of the case based on the flash hole. Of note, if you are using this type of length trimmer, burs on the top of your flash holes (from punching during manufacture) may affect the length of the trim- if a bur is present, it could push the pilot up a bit, though the case holder likely accounts for most of that. Because of this fact, and the fact that the pilot is not adjustable, I went out and purchased a Forster trimmer. The Forster, which you’ll see later, enables me to ream donuts at the base of the neck to- an added plus.

Anyhow, as a result the cases are all very close in length, and not representative of the factory PMC case lengths- there is still some variation however, but I’ll come back to the length in a minute…



“N” is the number of cases I measured, so I ran through 300 cases. I weighed them using my little Hornady scale, which isn’t fancy but weighs things in 0.1 grain increments. For those of you who are more visual, like me, here’s a histogram of the number of cases for each weight. The min and max are pretty clearly outliers, since they ‘float’ on the extreme ends of the curve.



The graph is pretty gnarly for me to look at. I’m not a big fan of the peaks scattered across the histogram- peaks like that suggest a lack of consistency, which makes me grumpy. But, does it matter? This is an analysis I’ve wanted to do for a while, so here we go...

 

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DOES CASE WEIGHT VARIATION MATTER?!

One grain of brass is about 0.065 grams- with a density of 8.5 grams per cubic centimeter, that means that the additional brass between these two peaks represents a difference of about 0.00765 ml (0.065/8.5) (1 cubic cm is 1 milliliter) of case volume.

From the 223 Wiki, the case capacity of the 223 Remington is presented to be 1.87 ml of water. So the difference of 0.00765 ml between the two peaks is around 0.4% case capacity (0.00765/1.87), or half a percent. Half a percent doesn’t seem like much, so I’ll assume case weight has a negligible impact on brass case volume (<- note 'volume' and not performance!).

I know a LOT of competitive shooters weight-sort their brass however. It would be interesting to study cases that are identically prepared, but 1 grain different in weight to see if there is a measurable difference in muzzle velocity. Still more interesting, if there is a difference in velocity, is that difference really due to volume, or some other internal ballistic dynamic (e.g. more brass means the case can tolerate slightly more force without stretching, which might increase pressure a tiny bit, and that tiny increase in pressure might translate to a few FPS).

One more academic hypothesis to consider and potentially study… Now we’re having some fun!

 

[bloc]

DOES CASE WEIGHT VARIATION MATTER?!
. . . . I’ll assume case weight has a negligible impact on brass case volume (<- note 'volume' and not performance!).

I'm a guppy here, but it seems to me that case volume may not have noticeable effects on performance.

I would think that, in the real world, minor variations in case length, weight of propellent, variations of brass hardness, variation in bullet bearing surface, variation in primer burning, variation in the lay of individual kernels in the case, ambient temperature shifts, etc. would have as much or more effect on performance than case volume.

JMHO.

 

[Bully]

Great read. Thank you for posting.

I always tell guys that tell me they are interested in reloading to figure out how far down the rabbit hole they are willing to go. Regardless of whether or not you want to dance on the edge or go scrambling fully down, it's still a rewarding process. I simply poke my nose in just past the rim. I started to head further down and then realized that for me, it's not fun. So I sold my comparators and such and I just do some case prep and shoot. For my shooting, it's plenty. And, my guns shoot well enough for me to have a good time. However I'm glad that there are guys like you in the world, as going further in benefits the community as a whole.